Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I wasn't sure which of the manifold forums to drop this in but since this is character building it seemed 'close enough.

From the Wiki:
Thunderstrike: At 3rd level, a stormsinger with 11 or more ranks in Perform can use bardic music to unleash a deadly thunderbolt. The bolt can be targeted at any one creature within 60 feet, and the stormsinger must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit the target. If she hits, the stormsinger then makes a Perform check; the result indicates how much electricity damage the thunderbolt deals (double on a critical hit). A Reflex save (DC10 + stormsinger's class level + Cha modifier) halves the damage. If the creature fails its Reflex save, it must make a Fortitude save (same DC) or be deafened for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

What does that statement mean exactly? The word isn't clear. Let's say I have 20 Perform and I roll a 10 so I have net 30 total. Does that indicate 30 points of damage?

This formula also appears to be used for other SS abilities

Her caster level is equal to her ranks in Perform, with a maximum caster level of 30th.

Once again here, not totally clear. Is this only the CL? If so how is damage itself calculated? If I have 20 ranks of perform is it 20D6 or does it use the same basic formula as above for damage which itself is not clear. Like I roll a perform check and get a net total of 18 (10 Ranks and roll an 8) is that 18d6 or is the damage tied to your SS level + CHA modifier somehow.

This is 100% unclear and I'm hesitant to roll a test drive on this character until I understand this mechanic a bit better. So again, pretend you are talking to an idiot and explain this a bit if anyone can. Thanks!

A skill check = d20 + skill ranks + modifiers. So if you have 20 ranks in perform, + 5 from CHA, + 10 from gear the damage would be d20+20+5+10= 36-55 damage. Pretty good when you consider there are bards running around with 100+ Perform...

Caster level = RANKS in perform is different than a skill check. This means your caster level = the number of skill points you have allocated to the skill without any modifiers (no stat, spell, inspiration, or equipment bonuses.) If it says caster level it only means caster level.

So for example, Gust of Wind can be up to CL30 but Gust of Wind doesn't really benefit from CL... however SoV does, so it becomes important since CL determines duration. However, it's important to note the DC for Storm Singer abilities does not improve from Epic CL (at least I don't think it does).

Does this help or are you asking for a more basic explanation of how DCs work vs. saves and how much damage is 'good'?

Edit: One thing I did notice in the description that doesn't make sense is the Great Thunderstrike which does not require a ranged touch attack (effects are more like lightning bolt) but still indicates double damage on a crit, but you don't make an attack roll so can't crit, sooooooo.....

chad878262 wrote:
Does this help or are you asking for a more basic explanation of how DCs work vs. saves and how much damage is 'good'?

LOL no, not quite -that- idiotic.

It was more because that calculation you listed (Which is great thank you) is shown in part on the first ability, Thunderstrike.

But then on say Winter's Ballad which is greater call lightning it doesn't show how damage is calculated. So I wasn't sure if the damage reverts back to how the actually call lightning / GCL works which is based on caster level or if it follows the same d20 + Perform + Modifiers. That was my main confusion if the 'other' power in the series all use that same basic formula. I'm assuming SoV doesn't because it is a fixed amount of dmg per round but the other powers are not so it wasn't as clear. That would be the only additional clarification I need.

Gotcha. Damage for winters ballad is as per the spell at Caster level based on perform.

Ok so the whole reason I posted this was I rolled a SS before and something seemed screwy with it.

I reconfirmed that tonight. I was using Winter's Ballad which I assume would have a DC generated as follows: (DC10 + stormsinger's class level + Cha modifier) same as Thunderstrike right? Or perhaps even DC13 + because if it 'matched' Greater Thunderstrike that would be the progression?

Anyhow, I fired this off and by that calculation it -should- have been DC25 or DC28 depending, but what I was getting was DC21 which is pretty weak. So there is some funny math going on there and of course at high levels DC21 is saved against by pretty much everything. I had 10 SS levels and a +5 CHA modifier. Any idea what's up with this? I thought maybe it was an armor penalty but even in cloth it was still DC21.

I will repeat this again tomorrow and link some screencaps here so you can see that it doesn't appear to be calculating properly for some reason. (Or else the DC is calculated based on something else?)

I believe the DC is calculated like a Greater Call Lightning would, which would fit the DC of 21 here. I haven't been able to find the spell fro nwn2 but in 3.5 PnP it is a sixth level spell; 10(base) + 5(Spellcasting Modifier) + 6(spell level) for DC 21.

The effects that DCs are impacted by stormsinger levels are specified in the wiki but Winter's Ballad is not one of them.

Okan wrote:I believe the DC is calculated like a Greater Call Lightning would, which would fit the DC of 21 here. I haven't been able to find the spell fro nwn2 but in 3.5 PnP it is a sixth level spell; 10(base) + 5(Spellcasting Modifier) + 6(spell level) for DC 21.

The effects that DCs are impacted by stormsinger levels are specified in the wiki but Winter's Ballad is not one of them.

That math fits so I'm guessing you are right. Well, makes the class a bit less desirable as most monsters in teens or low epics will easily beat a DC21 save. Which means your only real tool is to just spam SoV until you are out of songs. Sort of a one trick pony, not a fan of classes like that.

You should consider that they still have other abilities, most mobs do NOT have good reflex saves and Winter's Ballad is not their capstone ability. Storm of Vengeance is.

Additionally, just like any caster, DC focus requires ability score focus. Most Casters end with ~30-36 modified casting stat and since winters ballad is calculated as a spell, assuming you are CL30 Bard:

DC = 10 + 6 (spell level) + 3 (Epic Caster CL29) + 12 (CHA 34) = 31 (that is with no feat investment that most spell casters make.)

You also need to consider almost all of Bards spellbook has sonic damage and enchantment disables. So getting electricity damage and Storm of Vengeance can be a decent boon... Plus you still get Hymn of Requiem.

Yeah chad for a full tilt bard it is very viable. I was trying that bard / SS / Heirophant build that gets put up here often which is really more cleric than bard. I think the issue is if you spec your SS for cleric levels then your Bard CL will never get high enough that way. So you almost have to make a dedicated bard build.

It makes me wonder about that Bard / Cleric / SS / Heirophant build at all. Because you are a good cleric and a sort of 'meh' bard. Your SoV is useful and maybe that is the point but the other SSinger abilities will be very watered down w/ that build as you will never get the DCs to get them effective. I guess that is the trade off on hybrids.

I think if I did the SS build I would go full bore Bard 20 / SS 10 for max effectiveness exactly as you described it. The couple of SoVs you get on the hybrid doesn't seem worthwhile to me.