Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

This Paladin kit is very bare bones and lacklustre still, and needs improving, it does not have any real synergy with the strength attribute (which was supposed to be the whole point), and has deviated away from being focused on wielding a large weapon as opposed to a medium or small weapon, and so I propose the following options:


Option 1:

Condense what it gains thus far into twenty levels instead of thirty levels. And I say thirty levels and not twenty nine levels as the description states it is, because you can't do anything with that last level except to level up as a Paladin again.


Option 2:

Grant four additional bonus feat selections at level 5,10,15,20.


Option 3:

Grant four additional Paladin themed abilities: Kaedrins two extra Lay on Hands uses at level 2, Extra Smiting at level 7, Protection from Evil as a spell like ability at level 13 the way Holy Sword has been implemented for the Crusader, and Great Smiting I at level 22.


Option 4:

Increase the HD to 12 and will saves to high.

The reason for 29 levels is level 1 can't be a kit level, so you won't hit level 29 until you reach character level 30. That said, I would agree Crusader could use a slight bump. I don't think Option 4 will work since kit's are still the base class so not sure you can change HD.

Cavalier gets the Ranger themed Favored Enemies. Might be neat for Crusader to get more Power-Attacky type abilities. Like perhaps PA/IPA/enhanced IPA, but maybe base Enhanced IPA more off of Paladin-ness. Perhaps when using PA/IPA with a large or medium weapon in two hands, double the WIS to damage or something.

I've argued this fruitlessly for a while. I think the best option is to condense the kit into 20 levels - like the other kits are - to allow the Crusader to better develop some martial utility (which is the idea given the sacrifice of spell casting).

In the hierarchy of the paladin variants, it's

1a. Divinate (PvE)
1b. Cavalier (PvP)
2. Vanilla paladin
3. The paladin's warhorse
4. The paladin's trusted teenage squire
5. Crusader

RedLancer wrote:1a. Divinate (PvE)
1b. Cavalier (PvP)
2. Vanilla paladin
3. The paladin's warhorse
4. The paladin's trusted teenage squire

Which one of those make a better 2 hander paladin than crusader?

mrm3ntalist wrote:

RedLancer wrote:1a. Divinate (PvE)
1b. Cavalier (PvP)
2. Vanilla paladin
3. The paladin's warhorse
4. The paladin's trusted teenage squire

Which one of those make a better 2 hander paladin than crusader?

Vanilla Paladin (but honestly, vanilla is better than Cavalier and Divinate too).

The +6 AC is nullified by taking ICE. The penalty to AB is partially nullified thanks to +4 AB/Damage thanks to +8 STR. Can actually end up with MORE AC thanks to Paladin Spells and shield wand (which doesn't stack with Crusader AC).

Giving up Turn Undead/EDM is not a big deal for the shield toting paladin, giving up spell casting is a far worse penalty when you consider you're losing +8 STR, Deathward, +2 AC that stacks with everything, a bit of DR, and some other goodies in their spell books. The AC they get can be made up elsewhere, epic weapon focus is nice, but that and +3 damage from WIS is not worth losing a spellbook. That said the real issue is no matter what a two hander is simply not as good as sword and board, but that is not specific issue to paladin. It's a matter of being a glass canon of damage that doesn't have HiPS for defense and AC is still too low to reliably stay up over the long term, making it consumable heavy (healing pots). End of the day the issue is that Crusader gives up the strongest paladin ability (spell casting) whereas divinate (smite) and cavalier (turn undead) give up abilities that are nice to have, but not nearly as important. Meanwhile it is the weakest type of build on this server (two hander) while divinate extends and gives more slots to the Paladins fantastic spellbook and cavalier gives synergy to going max STR by removing ability to get EDM (max STR pally wouldn't qualify anyway) and giving some solid synergizing feats (shield bash, shield charge, extra smiting/great smiting and favored enemies). Thus they are gaining situational damage and a really good battlefield control feat line. Crusader goes against the grain by still needing WIS (13 required, +3 item gives the max bonus to damage) while loosing the spellbook. I understand why we went this route, but in looking at the various kits Crusader has the least synergy in requirements vs. benefits. still needs 30 levels for top tier benefit and still needs wisdom, but with no spell casting the only reason is requirements of the class, not benefits you gain from them.

Why not increasing the AC to +8 instead of +6, giving it Death Ward as SLA and Epic Resilience?

Since the damage seems to be a problem only because the defense is too weak, and the kit is a 1-30 thing...bolstering the defense should make it attractive enough.

No?

PS: I read Atlas' request to increase Will to high. That would be inconsistent with the class, but a bonus to Will save could be given to the same effect, if need be.

RedLancer wrote: 4. The paladin's trusted teenage squire

Hmmm...

Is he...really a teenager, or he just...you know...looks young..?

Which one of those make a better 2 hander paladin than crusader?

All of them, actually.

Crusader Strike's damage buff is covered by the paladin's stacking strength spells.
The Crusader's AC bonus, up to +6, is covered by the Silverbeard spell and a Shield wand and the higher potential for Divine Shield if a Charisma or STR/CHA route is chosen.
The Crusader's attack bonus feats (Focus, Greater Focus, Epic Focus) are again covered by the Paladin's spells (Strength boosts, Bless, Aid).

The Crusader's "strength" is that it goes 0-100 fairly quickly because it has, usually, 1-3 rounds of preparation, which are Holy Sword and then Divine Might/Shield if you didn't focus exclusively on Strength (but a STR focus seems to be the best build).

However, this is a fairly niche strength; a CL 30 PC is seldom dispelled, and PCs rarely face situations in the server content in which the expiration of buffs is actually an issue. Consider also that you're giving up all of the paladin's spell-based durability and utility to "gain" stats that fall short of the other variants' potential; it's 30-levels to arrive at the Holy Sword gimmick - which is absolutely necessary to be not useless - and be a worse two-handed combatant than the paths that aren't even focused on two-handed fighting and which also have the benefit of being able to multiclass 26/4 and retain the full benefits of their kits.

If the kit were condensed to 20 levels, then Crusaders would have the option to explore other martial options to improve their ability / general combat effectiveness, and they still would not exceed the basic paladin - which is the held example of mechanical balance - in overall power.

Otherwise, I prefer a take on

Option 3:

Grant four additional Paladin themed abilities: Kaedrins two extra Lay on Hands uses at level 2, Extra Smiting at level 7, Protection from Evil as a spell like ability at level 13 the way Holy Sword has been implemented for the Crusader, and Great Smiting I at level 22.

... in which Crusader retains its current properties and adds the smiting theme described in the quoted text as well as the Weapon Specialization feats that correspond to the Focus feats. This, I think, would better illustrate the Crusader's theme and create a better division of concept among the paladin kits:

Divinate: EDM
Cavalier: Strength
Crusader: Smite

mrm3ntalist wrote:

RedLancer wrote:1a. Divinate (PvE)
1b. Cavalier (PvP)
2. Vanilla paladin
3. The paladin's warhorse
4. The paladin's trusted teenage squire

Which one of those make a better 2 hander paladin than crusader?

Paladin spells offer:
+12 STR (You could use the +8 STR Spell, then use the +4 Stacking spell to gain +12 for 1 min/level IIRC). That is +6 AB/+6 Damage. Two-handing gets more damage.
+8 CHA (You'd be crazy not to do EDM thanks to the high STR/CHA buffs, so you'd end up gaining +4 AC with divine shield, +8 damage with EDM, and +4 round duration on both).
+2 AB from Aid and Bless.
Holy Sword (of which Divinate gets more uses).
+5 EB/Keen with one spell (So, +5 AB/Damage against everything not just evil unlike crusader).

Not to mention defensive buffs like Deathward, Freedom of Movement. Not to mention stuff like 1d4 extra sonic damage.

Divinate can also extend up your short-term buffs nicely, and with the added spell-slots you'll have a solid duration on them.

Crusader is a PoS, if I'm going to be perfectly blunt. It is, for all intensive purposes, a trap for players who don't know the mechanics well. All its defensive and offensive feats can be replicated with better results using other kits.

Weapon Defense 6? ICE, your AB buffs more than make up for the lost AB. Or how about Silverbeard and a Shield wand, as was mentioned above.

Permanent Holy Sword? Again, your offensive buffs give more milage than one spell, and Divinates can also stack this spell on top of their own abilities for quite a while. If you really want too many uses of it, use a wand.

Epic Weapon Focus? Cool, +4 AB. Again, your offensive buffs cover this. Even if you decided to use ICE, they'd still cover it.

Crusader Strike (+3 Damage). ONE of your offensive buffs blows this out of the water. Not to mention you are getting more than it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are my suggestions for making Crusader worth even looking at:

--Make Crusader Strike based on CHA, and give it a cap of +1/5 Crusader Levels with an additional +1 at Crusader 29 (cap of 6). Introducing MAD into this class just makes it weaker and less desirable. Make this damage "positive energy" or "magical" damage so it stacks with EDM. If it doesn't, there is no point to it.

--Give it DR/- equal to CHA+1/5 Crusader Levels at 7. This'll typically ending up being 12-14/- DR.

--Give it toughness at 6, Steadfast determination at 12, and epic resilience at 25.

--Give it the weapon specialization line of feats, at the same level it gets epic weapon focus.

--At 27, give it Weapon Mastery in the type of weapon its chosen weapon is (blunt, slashing, or piercing).

--Finally, change its Weapon Defense to be +1/7 levels of Crusader, with +1 at level 29. This turns it into a total of +8 AC instead of +6.

Honestly, those changes would suffice for making it an ok class. It would be powerful in its own right, but it would still be a debate between it and Divinate for me.

Metaquad, the +8 STR spell lasts 3 rounds. Minute/level the paladin can have +8 STR... That said, everything else in your post is pretty much spot on... If Paladin could have +12 STR indefinitely why would anyone go barbarian!

chad878262 wrote:Metaquad, the +8 STR spell lasts 3 rounds. Minute/level the paladin can have +8 STR... That said, everything else in your post is pretty much spot on... If Paladin could have +12 STR indefinitely why would anyone go barbarian!

IIRC, it is the way the +4 STR spell was coded, unless we made our own version. I'm assuming we took it from Kaedrin since most our paladin spells came from him.

The way "sacred bonus" worked (because nwn2 doesn't have a real sacred bonus) is this:

It looks at your current STR EB, adds 4, then gives you the result for 1 min/level.

So, you could cast Strength of Stone (3 rounds) then cast the sacred +4 STR spell. The spell would say "ok, you have +8 STR EB. I'll give you +4 more, so +12 EB. Now, I'll give you +12 STR EB for 1 min/level."

metaquad4 wrote:

chad878262 wrote:Metaquad, the +8 STR spell lasts 3 rounds. Minute/level the paladin can have +8 STR... That said, everything else in your post is pretty much spot on... If Paladin could have +12 STR indefinitely why would anyone go barbarian!

IIRC, it is the way the +4 STR spell was coded, unless we made our own version. I'm assuming we took it from Kaedrin since most our paladin spells came from him.

The way "sacred bonus" worked (because nwn2 doesn't have a real sacred bonus) is this:

It looks at your current STR EB, adds 4, then gives you the result for 1 min/level.

Oh, well if that's the case it's a bug that I haven't heard of before. If so it aught to be squashed.

It's not a bug, a bug is unintentional. It is just the way sacred bonuses work in nwn2, because again, obsidian didn't code in those kinds of stacking bonuses. The stacking was very much a reality of making it, it is intentional.

You can be unaware of an intention, that doesn't make it a bug.

Then again, evasion in nwn2 never stated it required light armor (a difference from the PnP version) but it was considered a "bug" iirc (never remembered it in the feat description). So, I guess anything can be a bug?

It is a bug and it's most definitely been fixed on BG

The stacking was intentional but sacred strength overriding strength of stone's duration wasn't

Guys, which of those kits make a better 2 hander paladin? Can you show me a build?

The Whistler wrote:It is a bug and it's most definitely been fixed on BG

The stacking was intentional but sacred strength overriding strength of stone's duration wasn't

RiP. Alright, good to know.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Guys, which of those kits make a better 2 hander paladin? Can you show me a build?

http://nwn2db.com/build/?297041

There.
43 AB, 45 AB with 1 wand, 48 AB for 1 round every 30 seconds.

51 AC, 57 AC with a 2 wands.

61.5 Damage/Hit, 71.5 Damage/Hit for 1 round every 30 seconds. Scimitar Crit Range, 15/x2.

Also, you do have some flexibility. For example, you can replace prayer and/or blessed strike with Holy Sword, or two uses of Holy Sword. You can also use wands for Holy Sword.

Do you have a build that does better, with Crusader?