Death Attack DC - how high would it need to be to matter?

[Rudolph]

Has anyone ever built an INT-heavy assassin that, even at high levels, managed to paralyze on a roll that wasn't a one? From which DC score onwards would you see benefits (with regard to high level PvE mobs)? I guess I'm asking how high the Fortitude saves of mobs are...

Oh, and do Spellcraft saves vs. spells apply to the Death attacks?

[Deathgrowl]

For the latter question, I don't think so. Death attack isn't a spell. I think it's counted as a poison (so saves vs poison would work, like you get from Spiderskin). But don't take my word for it!

I think Whistler had a high int assassin once. Some swash/wm/duelist/assassin or something.

I also know that people have build blaster wizards with assassin (so something like wizard/asoc/assassin/arcane trickster or whatever - just off the top of my head, I haven't done the math on that split) where they have essentially used hips and a melee weapon to paralyse things from stealth. Always seemed a bit ineffective to me, but some people managed to make it work.

How high DC is going to make it work on anything other than a 1 roll, though? Well the DC is 10+assassin level+int modifier. So if you go for 10 assassin levels and 14 int and you use your fox's cunning spell from assassin, your DC is already 24.

Here are some of the low-to-high epic mobs of the server and their saves:

Hidden: show

The air elemental is probably immune. The dragon is possibly also immune. But the rest all have to roll more than 1 (in fact more than 4 or more for the one with highest fortitude) to beat the DC.

And that is by building a fairly standard assassin with no real focus on that DC. If you go for a different kind, for instance a swashbuckler assassin with int in the 20s, you're going to be even better at it. Although you'll be less likely to dual wield and so have fewer applications of it in the first flurry, where it happens.

I hope that answers to your satisfaction.

[chad878262]

End of the day here is the issue....

Let's say you go MAX INT, let's say 30 INT, +4 fox for 34...

Level 10 Assassin death attack DC becomes 10+10+12=32...

Problem here is that now your DEX isn't going to be enough to get you PTWF, nor is it high enough to have a decent AB with Manyshot. Thus instead of 4 or 5 death attacks (10 or 13 APR) or 6 (Manyshot) you have ~2. You'll definitely notice a lot more failed saves against mobs, but you are also doing less overall damage. The key to an assassin is killing quickly so often it's better to do more damage out of HiPS with death attack just being gravy. This is why most Assassins end up with Death Attack DC somewhere between ~22-26, because they want more DEX.

All of that said, high DC Death Attack can absolutely be a thing and will work. I think you'll just be frustrated because even when it doesn't work, a well built assassin kills most epic caster mobs in the first flurry or maybe the second and takes most melee mobs to half HP or less. When death attack hits it's a bonus, just like blinding strike or feint working.

I think a great synergy build for this style would be to go for a SB14/D7/A9. In this manner you the sneak damage isn't overly important. You just roll with ~20 or so DEX and ~24 or higher INT to approach 30 for your DA DC. You have double INT to damage and INT to AC from Duelist so even out of stealth you have solid AB, Damage and AC....HiPS can be used more defensively to dodge spells.

Another interesting build option might be a Shield Slamming Assassin, but there is less synergy in a STR/INT split since shield slam can't use INT for DC so there your death attack is going to fire a lot less.

[wurdpass]

In my idle brainstorms about how to use the Howling War Drummer class best, I thought of a

Tannarruk Swash 12/Assasin 9/HWD 5/Blackguard 4

With max perform/intim your target rolls against the HWD intimidate save of 32, which if they fail is -2 to saves
So with BG they are taking -4 to saves.

You can thus get a 30 dc mod (works fifty percent on those cloud peak mobs) with a +7 int mod, or 20 int and a fox potion

10 + 9 levels + 7 int + 2 bg + 2 hwd = 30

Idk if you can get PTAF and 20 int on a tanarri, +2 dex and -1 int, but you should be able to get GTWF. Since you have 27 BAB, hwd dmg and int to dmg you should still be able to kill stuff with just GTWF

But youd need a smarter math person than me to estimate the diff in power betw getting PTWF to force another death attack roll at a lower DC and having higher DC but forcing less rolls

[chad878262]

If nothing else, I like the synergies wurdpass...well done!

[Rudolph]

Me too! Nice idea, that War Drummer. Although on the RP front it is seriously strange that an approaching war drum beat does not break Stealth...

[Steve]

With a DC of 26 for Death Attack and PTWF or Manyshot, you'll have good action with the Feat. There are plenty of mobs/bosses on the Server that are immune to something or another, so you'll always be playing to your PC's strengths.

[wurdpass]

Thanks Chad

Me too! Nice idea, that War Drummer. Although on the RP front it is seriously strange that an approaching war drum beat does not break Stealth...

I totally get this. As a counter:

You could figure a hostile PC to have the foreboding fear, knowing a intimidating presence, since theyll probably be "metagaming" that they are affected by the aura anyway.

As far as NPC mobs go.. Given that they seem to forget you attacked them and existed the moment you HIPS, im not sure that this is the biggest realism issue

[Rudolph]

True, true. Not to mention the fact that he uses weapons while 'drumming'...

[Rudolph]

Oh, while we're on the subject of Death Attack - does anyone know if it is made via Shield bash? I know sneak attack is, but am not sure re. the paralysis roll...

[chad878262]

death attack only applies when the enemy is not in combat mode. Since Shield Bash attacks would happen after the first flurry it is unlikely to apply death attack save DC. However, mechanically I'm not sure if it's possible, just don't see how it would be applicable in practice regardless.

[Rudolph]

If the shield attacks follow the first flurry, I guess my question is whether they count towards the flurries, i.e. whether, say, a build with 6 attacks and 1 shield bash gets 3 attacks in the first flurry or only 2..

[wurdpass]

To answer the original question in OP, I tried to take a stab at some numbers (might've done it wrong feel free to correct).

First: If an opponent only fails on a 1, they have a 19/20 chance per roll of saving. If they have to pass 3 saves its 19/20^3 = ~86% and 4 attacks would be ~82%.


It's obviously very dependent on the opponents fort save, but in order to see some results I'd say you want a save at least +5 higher with 4 attacks or +7 higher with 3 attacks. With that DC, this is a bonus, like a critical hit, it'll happen sometimes but don't count on it!

So: Steve is definitely right that even DC 26 should see some results with PTWF with 4 sneak attacks out of stealth.


In order to feel some more confidence that you're probably going to proc death attack, you want another 2 dc, so like +7 with 4 or +9 with 3.

Above that, the probabilistic math says you should proc quite a bit. If you're +12 with 3 attacks, the opponent has a (20-12) = 8 / 20 or 2/5 chance of saving, and they have to save three times.

40%^3 = 6.4% chance of saving on all three rolls.

In conclusion: You'll probably want 9 levels of assassin and an int score of ~20 minimally if you are trying to make a build that will see Death Attack procs quite often especially for confidence in PVP.

To me, that means you likely want at least Swash 5, maybe 12, so you can consistently put that Int damage on your weapon as well.

However, as Steve said that's a real investment when immunities or even just a high fort save will slow you down, so you'll want another strategy for those folks.

[Rudolph]

Thanks for this, wurdpass! Very instructive. Now I'm wondering if there's any non-DA immune boss that could be paralysed. How cool would that be - though I doubt there is given the 6x save forced by Manyshot!

[Blackman D]

there is only one person who has ever built a high DC assassin, if i remember right her DC was like 32, effective 34 because of blackguard (that or 30 and 32)

wouldnt really say she was weak for back in the day but yea she didnt have as many issues landing DA

i havent seen larz on in a while and i dont remember what his assassins build was but i know he didnt like telling people, obviously