USELESS SPELLCASTER

[WKM]

Dear DM's

What is the problem or difficulty related to caster classes?

In the game there is something called sequential combat and you are taking the survival of the casters, thus forcing players to play with combat classes.

Ex: It is almost impossible for a caster to remain in a dungeon and not have sequential combativity and no resting place! This makes it very harmful compared to other classes!

1 - Why impose the difficulty of item creation? Mostly wonderful items.

2 - Scrolls some spells come out more expensive ... Blank Scroll costs 9 PO? And creation system costs more expensive than buying in store!

3 - Create something simple wand, but the Bone Wand 4,000 PO? Difficulty selling a basic item in any magic store for a simple cost!

I want to inform you that the server driving regarding caster classes is totally impaired and that thought is shared by many who want something good for the server!

[chad878262]

Caster Wizards eventually become the most powerful PvP class and with proper planning can solo everything besides the white dragon. Spell economy becomes a major part of learning to efficiently run a caster of any kind.

In D&D in general (not just this server), wizards start out weak as kittens, but are eventually the most powerful class. This is still the case, but in a real time (or semi real time) combat environment vs. the turn/rounds used in PnP, player skill becomes a big part of it. I will never be as good a PLAYER as Invoker even if I somehow manage to make a better build, thus he's always going to perform better...such is life.

scrolls and potions cost LESS to create on BGtSCC than they do in vanilla, but have the BENEFIT of being able to be created at higher caster levels (which increases cost). Wands are yet still cheaper because of the half price recharging station, but do cost more start up since you are getting 50 charges vs. the single charge scroll or potion. Vendors offer some scrolls at discounts to help wizards and others (UMD) at low levels get some extra protection and even offense.

As you level, wizards gain options to improve spell economy with longer term spells to allow them to defeat enemies/gain xp. You can do things like dominate a powerful monster within an area to fight for you, summon powerful monsters and buff them to fight for you, round up large groups of enemies and filter toward a choke point where you can drop cloud spells to destroy the large group with only one or two spells, or polymorph, shapechange yourself with buffs in to a pretty strong melee or ranged build. Meanwhile, when it comes to bosses, no one has more of a chance to one shot them then a well built wizard. Either a Frost Mage/ ASoC with Piercing Cold and empowered polar ray, a necromancer with energy drain, wail of the banshee, or an illusionist with Weird or Solipsism, or simply a bigby 9 and IGMS spam, or Vampiric Feast, or chickenator, or any number of other options.

The difficulty in caster classes is they are more complex and take a lot of practice with. I personally am terrible at them, or at least no better than average (gish types not included). However, if you put the effort in to learn them, I've seen players do eye popping cool stuff in game with all sorts of different build types.

[WKM]

Thanks for the reply!

But I still find it very strange a Blank Scroll cost 9 Gold and Bone Wand 4,000 Gold.

What you said and the basic thing that we have to do, but I predict that all this will become farmar gold every moment!

This ends with the theme exploring the regions and making the player hunting gold!

The class that I play is a druid and I have many difficulties in wand and scrolls with spells from my list, staffs practically does not exist for a druid!

[chad878262]

as you level you will do fine. max your wisdom and aim for dragon druid if you want the 'strongest' druid that is able to last forever (essentially), but do remember to grab natural spell. Also, remember, druid has the strongest pet in the game. Especially early on, but even at max levels it is important to spend some of your slots to buff your companion and they will pay dividends as you adventure.

Last point of advice, put "LFG, level X" in scry and I bet you will get tells from folks willing to meet up and adventure with you. This has the benefit of added safety, some fun RP, likely faster XP gains, and will help you OOC'ly learn the server area's and maybe a bit more of how to best play your character.

[WKM]

I honestly do not intend to follow metamorphosis build nor rely on animal companion to survive or build powerful build!

I would just like to go my way as a caster and have the means to achieve something basic for the same. Something relatively simple.

What I put into practice here is the limitation regarding the class itself, both in conjuration item stores and in limiting the use of talent in creation!

I know of the importance of group play and the high survival capacity, but I'm just reporting something concrete or inexpensive items!

Remembering that to get to the high levels, we must have the means for each class or construction to be valid and balanced!

To get to the high levels we need to survive, so I suggest you analyze and see a way to implement something that is basic in the D & D 3.5 game, especially for the spellcasting class!

[Darkwind]

I didn't want to beat this long undead horse but the reality is that wizards even at the highest levels have disadvantages they simply don't have in P&P because of the way the real time combat / rest system works as well as peculiarities to this particular server.

I played on 'hard mode' and leveled an esoterically pure DC caster from 1 to 25 before I threw in the towel. The numbers simply don't lie. Highly inflated HP, saves, and SR on monsters put a pure mage at a disadvantage as all feats must be geared toward combating that. So you chew threw spells at a burn rate that is significantly higher than you would otherwise.

The point where I will 100% agree with you on is that they are boss killers, bar none. If that is the style of play you want then go crazy. As I said, this is established doctrine here now that you are "ok" at dealing with rank & file monsters and excel at bosses. My own post from a few weeks ago has all these points laid out. In a party, you do exceptionally well too, but solo you are average at best having to rely on the one trick pony cloud spells to achieve any respectable damage numbers.

My wizard now exists as a HiPSter rogue and there is quite literally no comparison. I can solo the entirety of Serpent Hills including the temple and the nagas w/o batting an eye. Monsters fall down in about a second or two. My mage struggled to make it through this area without resting several times. I didn't rest once on the hipster. When I'm putting out 200-300 dmg per tick the only wizard that has a chance to compete is Elminster maybe. And I can do it every single time I engage any monster.

I think it is important for any potential new wizard to understand they are playing the game on 'Hard Mode' basically and be aware of that before committing to potential frustration and disappointment that will surely come when they hit epics. I briefly also RCR'd into a warlock that was another death spitting machine by a large margin compared to the paltry damage output of my wizzy and in that case that -included- AOE effect which is supposedly the wizards forte. Warlock w/ chain will out nuke you every day, all day, and twice on Tuesday.

[chad878262]

item creation is extremely powerful and is the 'standard' way that non-spell casting classes survive as they approach epic levels. In the meanwhile, there are plenty of inexpensive potions and scrolls that can help at low levels. Potion of mage armor gives +4 armor AC for 30 minutes at a cost of ~50 gold. Shield potion gives +4 Shield AC and immunity to Magic Missiles for 5 minutes at a cost of ~150 gold. Barkskin gives +3 Natural AC for ~45 minutes at a cost of ~80 gold. Heroism gives +2 AB/Saves for 50 minutes at a cost of ~120 gold. These potions alone (though you likely don't need barkskin, still not bad to have one or two for backup) can significantly increase the defense and offense of starter characters. Summon Creature scrolls (IV, V, or VI) have a decent duration and are great ways to get ~10-15 minutes of a powerful summon in the early levels, though these scrolls will cost a bit more gold.

On the other hand, wands offer insanely powerful benefits and the cost per use of even some of the longest lasting/most powerful spells end up casting ~500 gold per use or less. See the link in my signature for calculations on the vanilla spell wands if you're interested. Point being making them even cheaper (in relative terms) would likely have a severe impact on the difficulty level, which would make things less fun. If there is no learning curve, no challenge, then what is the point in playing? I do recall my first character and how difficult it was. However, that time frame was relatively short, maybe 6-9 months before I started really understanding and then learning exponentially faster. Point being, embracing the challenge of it will make it more fun, and as you clime in to the teens (level wise) and start having 10's of thousands of gold you will realize that making wand crafting (or any crafting) cheaper would probably be a bad idea.

As to the inflated hit points as a 'balancing mechanism' on the server, I agree with you @Darkwind. I hope to introduce a new area (well, ProgressivePsy is the one doing all the work, but I'm helping him where i can!) but we are in the very early stages at this point. We are working to balance it in a more organic fashion with different types of enemies that have different strengths and weaknesses. Thought being to have an area that necessitates a group working together that can solve for different enemies/puzzles/whatever. We will see how well it goes and I realize that does not help you NOW. Just calling out that there is merit to your concerns, but would just say that balancing to make things challenging for certain types of builds can certainly make them impossible for others. Unfortunate, but I can see why insane HP and DR was introduced, even if I don't agree with that method of 'balance'

[WKM]

What is not being seen is that all players have access to the store and benefit from it, can buy all these items, again and again there are no wands, staffs, scrolls for the druids specifically.

The issue is that everyone is benefiting, especially the combat class, I do not see the benefit to the caster class, nor does it encourage me to play with one knowing its limitations within the server.

Just review what is explicit in the server benefiting only some classes ... I am aware that it is something biased, this limitation comes from a long time and I am sure that the server there are people with the same problems, the question does not matter if it is an experienced player or newbie, but rather how it is being driven by the server, the high HP's and saves the monsters already justify a lot on those aspects!

[chad878262]

I don't know what I can say other than Druid is one of the strongest classes people can play. Dragon form is super strong tanky-ness, but Druid doesn't need it to be powerful, they are quite good as DC casters without using forms at all.

If your playstyle is not conducive to the druid, perhaps you would prefer Ranger which is quite well balanced with a far better spellbook than what shipped with the vanilla game. Can go archery or TWF and do quite well.

If a caster is your thing, like any spellcaster druid may start a little slow, but as they approach the low to mid teens they start to become unstoppable in PvE. Once they get to epics they're one of the easiest classes to play (i.e. buff to immunity and then ROFL-stomp content)

[Darkwind]

chad- good to hear about the new areas. I hope that the style of mix & match monsters that require different classes takes hold here would be a nice change of pace. This monster is very difficult to attack by physical means but susceptible to magic, this monster the opposite, maybe some in between. Diversity of challenge.

As for the druid vs wizard thing, there really is no comparison. If you cannot solo a druid I don't really know what to say. They are --hugely-- easier to play than a wizard, it isn't even close for the reasons you stated. My druid by mid-teens was 'easy mode' and just getting easier from there. Wizard was just starting to become viable around then.

[Deathgrowl]

Having played both to high levels, I can confirm that Druid is ridiculously powerful in PvE. They can feel a little bit slow in melee situations, as they will never really compare with the damage or AB of a fighter or favoured soul, but unless you're doing everything wrong, you're practically unkillable.

And then you have pretty good DCs on some fantastic AoE spells.

An offensive caster wizard that isn't an armoured blaster, is a bit more squishy and takes a bit more skill to play effectively. I don't have that skill and I still after 7 years am waiting for evidence that such a wizard can solo the Vault of the Dead (not just one boss in there) as has been claimed to me so many times. I'm happy to concede that I just don't have the skill to do it, but I can't imagine how it is done.

Now you might ask, as Invoker once did to me: "Yes, you can do it. But why would you?!" Well. Because it's fun to see what you can do alone sometimes?

Anyways. Wizard is very powerful. It's just not very sustainable. That's just how wizards work. There was a post somewhere about "the overlord" style wizard, which is really the best way to approach it.

Gishes also work, of course. But that doesn't quite feel like a wizard.

[Invoker]

evidence that such a wizard can solo the Vault of the Dead (not just one boss in there) as has been claimed to me so many times. I'm happy to concede that I just don't have the skill to do it, but I can't imagine how it is done.

You don't need more than 3-4 spells for stuff like Vargoth or the Warlock boss.

You don't need more than 9-10 spells to kill the Dracolich (more likely less).

If you have a Wizard with CL 32+, and at least 30 INT, and Vampiric Feast, the Vault is rather trivial. Graypeaks are more difficult (I still don't have overly many issues, though, so anyone with experience can do it).

Now you might ask, as Invoker once did to me: "Yes, you can do it. But why would you?!" Well. Because it's fun to see what you can do alone sometimes?

Good answer.

I do it to show off.

[chad878262]

I do it to show off.

one issue...in order to show off, someone has to be there to see it, thus you aren't solo...cheater!

[Invoker]

I do it to show off.

one issue...in order to show off, someone has to be there to see it, thus you aren't solo...cheater!

If they're not on their DM accounts, or beside me watching me play, yeah.

Flawless theory, young padawan.

[WKM]

I think the view is a little distorted on the topic!

I'm not saying the ineffectiveness of the conjuring classes and specifically druid are weaker, I'm saying that without the magic arsenal that allows you to have this reduced or almost nothing about the Druid Ex: Sttafs / Wands / Scrolls

I know the druid and I know what he is capable of in low / mid / high levels, I just wanted to see the issue of magic supplies ...

Example: Blank Scroll 9 GP.

Cost creation CL x Spell level x 25 GP = 50%

Example: Bone Wand 4.000+ GP (Really)

Cost creation CL x Spell Level x 750 = 50%

Honestly I'm not talking about being efficient or not, I'm talking about the advantage and disadvantage of being a caster, primarily a spellcaster full druid, nothing wild shape, just arsenal and magic features.

Do you have a list of spells 1 - 9 for nothing? The resources on the server about it are weak and almost nothing in the stores.

Remembering that stores sell the same resources for all ... any class can have and use with UMD skill!

I will not mention here the question of creating wonderful items or magic equipment.