Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

[The Whistler]

Is there a reason why the class can't multiclass with Dragonslayer and/or Dragon Warrior ? DSlayer is currently the only option besides Harper Mage that opens up tumble without gimping your CL.

I'd like for that restriction to be looked at by the lore curators as there's no reason why a disciple couldn't be a metallic or chromatic wyrm hunter IMHO.

[Blackman D]

power restrictions given that it was banned in the first place for being OP

it wasnt brought back for the intent of being powerful but more as a rp route since we had all these other dragon classes but disciple which is an original

[The Whistler]

How is either DS or DW a balance concern lol. I can understand PM being one which is why I didn't bring it up, but the other two strike me as arbitrary lore restrictions. They just kinda happen to both have the word dragon in their name and that's apparently a no-no for.. reasons ?

[mrm3ntalist]

I went and read the 16page long discussion regarding this prc. The suggestion of this version of DD was suggested on aug 2016. Even this version was causing a lot of disagreements and even was shelved. Harsh restrictions were introduced to satisfy everyone and get this project going. Mechanically speaking, PM was the only PRC that was excluded for mechanical reasons. Mechanically, there are no issues to allow Dragon Slayer, even Dragon Warrior.

[The Whistler]

What were the lore arguments for disallowing DW and DS ?

[ARHicks00]

I find this post funny as it is (as well as the 16 page discussion) is a big, I told you so to the Epic Character II guild.

[artemitavik]

I actually have no problem with having Dragon Warrior, Dragon Hunter, and Dragon Disciple being not allowed to multiclass into each other.

While I get the reasons for wanting to do so, I view it as each is a different take on Draconic paths that aren't necessarily compatible.

Not to mention if you stacked, say, DD with DW, both of which have some pretty useful bonuses, and now you're essentially part dragon twice? Even if you take the same dragon color for both, now you've got two separate breath weapons? Seems off to me.

As for Dragon Hunter, their whole point is pretty much to end dragons. Would thing that would basically be offensive to anyone part dragon, therefor not a followable path.

[Ravial]

I have the same opinion as Artemitavik. Dragon Disciple and Dragon Warrior together make... No sense at all, if you consider the draconic backgrounds as they are for each PRC. Dragon Slayer is objectively more viable, but kind of a "agreeable" stretch, rp-wise.

[Hoihe]

For DW/DD, I could imagine as a character path. Becoming a Dragon Warrior is easier than becoming a DW. Say, a Fighter who has DW levels, reaizes they have sorc levels too, and gets DD on top.

For DS/DD - Say, you're a dragon disciple to Raugrathisj. Raugarathisj(red dragon) wants all silver dragons, especially of the Silverstone(clan) kind, dead. So you are a specialist in killing silver dragons.

[Diamore]

There is nothing lore or role-play based that limits these from being taken together.

Another simple example: A sorcerer whose people serve a dragon, trains as a Dragon Warrior. This leads to the exploration of their history/powers and their sorcery turns out to be from a dragon, they become a Dragon Disciple. An origin that is not a stretch by any margin for a sorcerer.

What else can you make that doesn't make sense but is mechanically possible?

• Paladin - Guild Thief
• Sacred Fist - Frenzied Beserker
• Frenzied Beserker - Duelist
• Dwarven Defender - Palemaster

Are they good builds? Probably not. Can you role-play them and give them interesting back stories and lore "hooks"? Very much so.

Mechanically limiting the Dragon based classes from being taken with one another makes no sense from lore or balance perspectives.

[ARHicks00]

I have the same opinion as Artemitavik. Dragon Disciple and Dragon Warrior together make... No sense at all, if you consider the draconic backgrounds as they are for each PRC. Dragon Slayer is objectively more viable, but kind of a "agreeable" stretch, rp-wise.

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Take D the Vampire Hunter for example or Blade from Marvel comics. You could easily make a Back story similar to that.

[ARHicks00]

There is nothing lore or role-play based that limits these from being taken together.

Another simple example: A sorcerer whose people serve a dragon, trains as a Dragon Warrior. This leads to the exploration of their history/powers and their sorcery turns out to be from a dragon, they become a Dragon Disciple. An origin that is not a stretch by any margin for a sorcerer.

What else can you make that doesn't make sense but is mechanically possible?

• Paladin - Guild Thief
• Sacred Fist - Frenzied Beserker
• Frenzied Beserker - Duelist
• Dwarven Defender - Palemaster

Are they good builds? Probably not. Can you role-play them and give them interesting back stories and lore "hooks"? Very much so.

Mechanically limiting the Dragon based classes from being taken with one another makes no sense from lore or balance perspectives.

1. Despite what they said. I'm 36 years old and I know for a fact the nerfs for most of the class were done out of paranoia that some kid might wtf own the server. (This isn't the first server to do this) The recent Solar Channeler topic I was in is evidence of that. Nothing but whining about how some guy could come on the server and make a powerful build out of it. So they nerf not only the spell levels, but took out the weapon enchantment aspect.

2. IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE PRCS THAT WEREN'T ALREADY BAD TO BEGIN WITH, they have been nerfed into uselessness and HAVE NOT KEPT ANY OF THEIR ORIGINAL DND NOR LORE ASPECTS. YOU CAN RP ANYTHING AS HOW YOU WANT IT, NO ONE ELSE HAS A SAY ON HOW YOU ROLEPLAY IT. THE TITLES/CLASS MEAN NOTHING UNTIL YOU INFORM SOMEONE OF YOUR CLASS OR SEE IT FOR THEMSELVES. Most people think my character is a paladin based on the way he dresses until they can see he can cast an array of spells or admits that he isn't one. DnD is game where YOU CAN PLAY AS YOU WANT, DO AS YOU WANT, AND BE WHO YOU WANT WELL WITHIN THE RULES. My current build is a Lawful Good Cleric/Dragon Slayer/Hieophrant/Hospitaler. None of those class make sense together and his attributes go against the traditional cleric. IT'S BECAUSE I CHOOSE TO PLAY MY CHARACTER THE WAY I WANT AND MY CHARACTER SHOULD BE VIEW/DEFINED BY HIS ACTIONS. MY CHARACTER IS NOT BASED ON WHAT SOMEONE ELSE THINKS IT SHOULD BE OR HOW IT SHOULD BE. I DID NOT PLAY DND FOR YOU TO MICROMANAGE MY CHARACTER. THIS IS WHY THE DND COMMUNITY KEEPS GETTING SMALLER....DUE TO MEGALOMANIACS AND PRIDE.

3. Dragon Disciple both nerfed and limited to the sorcerer only doesn't make sense, but see #1 why it was done. Not for RP reasons as I know better than to believe that. I respect the DM/Staff's decision as it is their server and SOME NERFS to classes/spells MADE SENSE, but I have common sense and this isn't my first server to know what's up.

[mrm3ntalist]

I will never get tired of saying it. This version of DD is much better for caster sorcerer - the class that the PRC is primary made for - than the version you speak of. There were no nerfs to DD. It was made from scratch to be a better fit for caster sorcs

[chad878262]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. M3nt is not lying, QC wise there is no issue with Dragon Slayer/Dragon Disciple or Dragon Warrior/Dragon Disciple. At best you end up with either a (much) worse caster or a lower CL gish. Dragon Disciple CAN be used to make an EDM Sorc Gish, sure....but with low BAB and 7/10 caster progression it is simply not as good as what was possible before Dragon Disciple was implemented.

As to the vanilla Dragon Disciple class, that thing had very little reason for existing other than for power building stat bumps. Requires caster levels, but gives no caster progression. Gives melee feats and abilities, but is not designed as a melee specialist. It's basically giving up ~4-10 levels in order to gain stat bumps. The way it was designed and implemented here is much more interesting and is one of the few PRC's introduced that can give a slight power-up to good and evil aligned sorcerers, instead of just evil. S6/ASoC 10/DD10/AM4 might be a fun Sorc Caster/Blaster or dropping ASoC for Frost Mage might be neat. Can be built better without Dragon Disciple so no issues, but it does add some nice benefit in the way of +1 DC through CHA. Also synergy with Blood Magus as well so could go that route. Lots of interesting options which Sorcerer's were likely quite happy with.

[Diamore]

I for one am quite happy with Dragon Disciple's new version on the server. Mine is hardly a power to be reckoned with, but it is fun and flavourful.

IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE PRCS THAT WEREN'T ALREADY BAD TO BEGIN WITH, they have been nerfed into uselessness and HAVE NOT KEPT ANY OF THEIR ORIGINAL DND NOR LORE ASPECTS.

This isn't true, nor is this thread about it. I think the work and balance that has gone into making the prestige classes on this server has paid off with good results.

I just don't agree with limiting class combinations.

Monk and Druid for example have no good reason to be separate any longer now that Monk AC does not transfer to shifted forms. Any Lawful Neutral should be able to toy with that build if they feel the desire.

Just as with a Dragon Disciple - Dragon Slayer - Dragon Warrior.