Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

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kitteninablender
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Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

Unread post by kitteninablender » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:35 am

So here are a few ideas for the spells Bestow Curse and Greater Bestow Curse.

I think the spells should work like Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration. A single spell that can mimic the effects of several other spells.

This is due to the fact that curses are supposed to be able to take an INFINITE number of possible shapes.

I also believe that curses enable a great means by which players can interact, either by Sharing a curse, or by one Player-Character placing a Curse over another.

I believe the spells should remain the same level, due to the fact that none of the effects produced by either is more powerful than an effect of equal or lower spell level, which is a very widely accepted rule by Dungeon Masters in regards to the Bestow Curse spell.

Essentially: Bestow Curse workds like a very low-level equivalent of a "Wish" spell. You name a desired outcome and as long as it's no more powerful than a spell of the same level or lower it should reasonably be allowed.

Here is how I think the spell should look:


Bestow Curse
Sor/Wiz 4 Cleric/Bard 4
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: Standard Action
Duration: Permanent

When you cast Bestow Curse Choose one of the following Modes:
-Blindness (As the Spell)
-2 to all ability Scores (( Standard mode))
-Slow (As the Spell)
- Charm Monster (As the spell)
-Ray of Enfeeblement (As the spell)

This also gives players a means by which to Roleplay a "Charmed" Character who has been charmed for the long-term. For example, this gives a means by which a PC could cast Charm Person on another PC in order to exact their help in a long-term plan.

______________________________________________________

Greater Bestow Curse:
Sor/Wiz 8 Bard 6

This spell works like Bestow Curse, except choose the following options:
Hold Monster (As the Spell)
Baleful Polymorph (As the Spell)
Dominate Person (As the Spell)
Greater Sanctuary (As the Spell. Works like Bard's Haven Song, except only the Target can't attack you until the curse is removed. Ends if you attack them.)
-6 to all Ability Scores (Standard mode)

This also enacts the ability for a player to roleplay Long-Term Domination of another player. This is a common tactic of Dominate Person spells. If you read Return to Castle Ravenloft Baron Strahd von Zarovitch has a woman dominated over the course of several days, forced to "act normal" until he tells her otherwise.

This adds a mechanical way and RP way for a player to also install things such as "Sleeper Agents." Agents who don't know they are Dominated until "activated."

To be more specific: This also gives a means by which to enact the effects of the spell "Geas/Quest." Where you force a player to go on a quest for you.

The reason for this is because Geas/Quest can be removed with Bestow Curse. :)

_____________________________________________________________

Secondly: I believe that there should be a Remove Curse and Greater Remove Curse spell, just as there are Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic. And I think that Remove Curse should require a caster level check to dispel a Curse the exact same way a Dispel Magic should be rolled against dispelling a spell.

I do not know if this is possible, or if it is "Hard coded" into the game, but I just think from both a Mechanical and a Roleplay aspect that a 5th level Cleric casting a 3rd level spell should not be able to remove the curse of a 30th level Sorceror/Wizard.

Forcing it to have a Caster Level check also means that Clerics at Temples MAY NOT automatically succeed at removing a curse.:

This can also add the extra bit of roleplay fun of having to locate a means to remove a powerful curse placed upon you by a powerful PC...especially if part of that Curse is that they can control you at any time!!!

Just my thoughts, and as always I appreciate Feedback!!!
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Re: Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

Unread post by Diamore » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:38 am

Permanent versions of most of those abilities are monumentally powerful effects. Specifically for PVP although permanent Dominate seems to be an extreme boost for PVE as well.

I'm not sure about the idea of Bestow Curse being able to replicate any lower level effect with permanent duration. I have never heard of this and the groups I play with definitely don't use this.

Permanent Dominate and Hold Monster are ridiculous. Just no. If used on a player there is no cure as they would not choose to (or be able to) cure themselves, inform others of the curse or make any other steps to fix themselves. Similarly, Charm is equally overpowering if used in such a way.

These kinds of curses are left in the hands of the DM in pnp for a reason. I would suggest RPing the use and design of such powerful curses with the help of a DM to enact such powerful effects.


Like wise, changing Remove Curse to be caster level based makes certain builds and playstyles (notably solo players) struggle. Finding someone who can remove a curse from a fighter type without enough UMD to cast a scroll is painful enough. Making it require you to find someone who can remove curses who is also a higher level than the one who cast it is too much.


I am quite fond of the Curse line and often find myself trying various curse based ideas for characters, so variety in curses would be welcome. But permanent duration on those curses is too powerful, they should be replicating debilitating effects not whole other schools.
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Re: Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:32 pm

An alternative is a new dropdown menu (like summons have) of options for these (and similar spells).

Eg.

Bestow Curse
  • -2 All Stats
    -6 Single Stat (caster picks one)
    Deafness
    Slow
    One of the above effects can be cast on equipment (potion, scroll, armour, weapon) to be traded to unsuspecting players.
Greater Bestow Curse
  • -6 All Stats
    Single Stat reduced to 1 (caster picks one)
    Silence
    Blindness & Deafness
    Charm
    Baleful Polymorph
    Slow & Clubbed Feet
    One of the above effects can be cast on equipment (potion, scroll, armour, weapon) to be traded to unsuspecting players.
Another option is to plug Bestow Curse in with the Craft Magical Arms/Armour, Craft Wondrous Items, Brew Potion & Scribe Scroll feats to allow cursing of equipment (which can then be sold/traded to players) and apply the same effects as above. Makes Detect Magic/Identify/Analyse Dweomer an important spell as a consequence.

Other spells that could use similar dropdown improvements:

Poison
  • Can be cast on a weapon or potion
  • Caster picks a poison from the dropdown menu
  • DC of OnHit Poison effect determined by caster DC (10 + Spell Level + Casting Mod + Other mods)
  • Poisoned Weapon OnHit duration is 1 round/CL.
  • Poisoned drinks are permanent until discharged.
Contagion
  • Can be cast on a weapon or potion
  • Caster picks a disease from the dropdown menu
  • DC of OnHit Disease effect determined by caster DC (10 + Spell Level + Casting Mod + Other mods)
  • Diseased Weapon OnHit duration is 1 round/CL.
  • Diseased drinks are permanent until discharged.
Mass Contagion
  • Caster picks a disease from the dropdown menu
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Re: Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

Unread post by Planehopper » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:08 pm

Casters get an inordinate amount of love on BG, and these changes (while thematically cool) give a flat out buff without drawback.

Can you imagine an x per day ability on fighters or non-casters that allows -6 to all stats without a specific spell to restore?

I like the concept but these aren't minor things here.
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Tsidkenu
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Re: Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:26 pm

The drawback is the same it's ever been Planehopper: Will Negates :P

Adding dropdown menus increases casting/reaction time on behalf of the player so it's not really something a mage can use in a pinch.
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Re: Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

Unread post by electric mayhem » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:43 pm

Tsidkenu wrote:An alternative is a new dropdown menu (like summons have) of options for these (and similar spells).

Eg.

Bestow Curse
  • -2 All Stats
    -6 Single Stat (caster picks one)
    Deafness
    Slow
    One of the above effects can be cast on equipment (potion, scroll, armour, weapon) to be traded to unsuspecting players.
Greater Bestow Curse
  • -6 All Stats
    Single Stat reduced to 1 (caster picks one)
    Silence
    Blindness & Deafness
    Charm
    Baleful Polymorph
    Slow & Clubbed Feet
    One of the above effects can be cast on equipment (potion, scroll, armour, weapon) to be traded to unsuspecting players.
Another option is to plug Bestow Curse in with the Craft Magical Arms/Armour, Craft Wondrous Items, Brew Potion & Scribe Scroll feats to allow cursing of equipment (which can then be sold/traded to players) and apply the same effects as above. Makes Detect Magic/Identify/Analyse Dweomer an important spell as a consequence.

Other spells that could use similar dropdown improvements:

Poison
  • Can be cast on a weapon or potion
  • Caster picks a poison from the dropdown menu
  • DC of OnHit Poison effect determined by caster DC (10 + Spell Level + Casting Mod + Other mods)
  • Poisoned Weapon OnHit duration is 1 round/CL.
  • Poisoned drinks are permanent until discharged.
Contagion
  • Can be cast on a weapon or potion
  • Caster picks a disease from the dropdown menu
  • DC of OnHit Disease effect determined by caster DC (10 + Spell Level + Casting Mod + Other mods)
  • Diseased Weapon OnHit duration is 1 round/CL.
  • Diseased drinks are permanent until discharged.
Mass Contagion
  • Caster picks a disease from the dropdown menu

Love the idea of putting curses on items. Could make for some interesting RP. Or just being a trollable arse!
"Oh look! "*Sees a bag on the ground displayed as Mithril Full Plate +3*, *rushes and picks up without examining*...*weighed down by CURSED full plate of normal grade... or worse.... Hillgiant Poop!!*." For the record... DMFI tool is a wondrous device.

I like the idea of a pop up UI for different curse types. Yes, not something one could do in PvP. Perhaps even make it a 3 turns casting spell like some of the other spells we have.

But yeh, mages have it fairly easy on our server.

In regards to poison realm. I'd rather keep it in the hands of those with the Use Poision feat. Especially for poisoning potions, weapons, etc.

If you'd want to curse an item as a mage, I'd be working along hte lines of more creative avenues. Random confusion application 5% when using a sword. Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity :D . Crazy Boots - Random application of slow/haste. Singing sword like Danilo Thanns.


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Re: Ideas for Bestow Curse/GreaterBestowCurse/Remove Curse

Unread post by metaquad4 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:24 pm

Planehopper wrote:Casters get an inordinate amount of love on BG, and these changes (while thematically cool) give a flat out buff without drawback.

Can you imagine an x per day ability on fighters or non-casters that allows -6 to all stats without a specific spell to restore?

I like the concept but these aren't minor things here.
Only one spell to restore? Are you sure? :D

----

Also, while casters>everything else used to be somewhat true as far as standard builds went (at-least in the case of arcane and divine gishes), it rings hollow now in the face things like man-at-arms, barbarian, phantom, and the new martial features (NH, Shield Bashing Builds) which have more than evened things.

Though, this isn't to say that caster wizards and DC clerics (who these changes primarily target) are top of the pile when it comes to over-all server content. I wouldn't say they are at all. They have excellent utility in events and the like, but as far as combat power goes this isn't a very significant buff.

The things that these changes would do would be mostly limited to player interactions and maybe the odd event NPC.

I wouldn't say that this constitutes a massive power boost. Of course, it will constitute some power boost. Changing something that is useless into useful almost always involves a power boost, obviously.

But, I suppose mages have it easy by virtue that buffing the party (mostly useful to cover for people with bad builds and turn good builds into excellent builds), turning invisible, and following around the party while waiting for something really terribad to pop out is a fairly simple life. There are arguments either way.
Tsidkenu wrote:A bunch of stuff above
I do like these ideas. I believe poison already does this, or at least something similar when you target a weapon with the spell. I haven't used this feature extensively though.
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