Northlander Hewing - which attacks are removed exactly?

[Rudolph]

It seems that NH removes a third of all attacks (except Shield bashes). Which ones? The lowest ones? The last in the sequence? This is especially relevant for TWFers.

[Steve]

I believe it is the lowest ones of the first hand.

[chad878262]

I believe it is the lowest ones of the first hand.

Correct. Also this applies to any modes that remove attacks. The ones at the end are always the ones removed.

[Rudolph]

The ones at the end

...of the main hand sequence, right? If so, what about the added Haste attack and Monk Flurry bug attack? Those are not the lowest of the main hand.

[chad878262]

It's the ones at the end of the sequence (shield bash excluded).

If you have a 12 APR PTWF character your flurries would look like this:

Flurry 1: Main hand AB, MH AB-5, MH AB -10, MH AB -15
Flurry 2: MH AB -20, MH AB -25, Off Hand AB, OH AB -5
Flurry 3: OH AB -10, OH AB -15, OH AB -20, OH AB -25

If you are using Northlander Hewing with this character you would end up having 8 APR, you would lose the four attacks in flurry 3, all of which would be the offhand attacks.

Monk flurry works a bit differently, the bugged extra attack happens at the end of the main hand attack schedule, so for example if you had a PTWF, greater flurry monk using kama's with BAB 25 the flurries would look like this:

F1: MH AB, MH AB, MH AB, MH AB -5, MH AB -10
F2: MH AB -15, MH AB -20, MH AB, OH AB, OH AB
F3: OH AB, OH AB -5, OH AB -10, OH AB -15, OH AB -20

Again, 15 attacks and you lose 1/3, thus you would lose all you flurry 3 attacks. Note that attacks are still split in three flurries, not two...It's just that the flurries would be redone... So 12 APR becomes 8, and 8 APR equates to 3, 3, 2 attacks in each flurry. 15 attacks becomes 10, making our greater flurry monk have 4, 3, 3 attacks in flurries.

make sense?

[Okan]

I cannot speak for higher BAB attack per round but my character that uses NH frequently have 3 main hand attacks and 2 off-hand attacks, totaling 5 attacks(11 BAB, Improved TWF). Due to NH I lose 2 attacks.
Regular:
Main Hand, Main Hand -5, Main Hand -10, Off-hand, Off-hand -5.

NH:
Main Hand, Off-hand, Off-hand -5.

In my experience, it discards only from main hand sequence, not from the end of the last flurry. I have never lost off-hand attacks like you've said chad, but it might be due to the low amount of attacks per round in comparison.

[chad878262]

That's odd, not in line with how Rasael explained it back in the day. Interesting.

[Okan]

I actually think it is better this way as NH is supposed to consolidate ones power into high BAB attacks. People who uses TWF and NH will be focusing on STR, therefore most likely have 3 off-hand attacks with GTWF for a total 9 attacks. except PTWF STR rangers. If 3 of those 9 attacks cut from offhand that would completely discard the TWF aspect.

[Rudolph]

In my experience, it discards only from main hand sequence, not from the end of the last flurry. I have never lost off-hand attacks like you've said chad, but it might be due to the low amount of attacks per round in comparison.

Can we have confirmation of the above from the designer of the feat? Was this one of you, Rasael or Valefort?

Also, I remember Valefort writing somewhere that, in cases of Flurry of Blows, the bugged last mainhand attack definitely counts towards the attack total. Does it also count among those that get removed or is it only the last regular mainhand attacks that disappear?

To spell it out in numbers:
If this is the regular attack sequence of the main hand using Greater Flurry of Blows (+2 full AB attacks at the start and +1 at the end):
(40/40/40)/(35/30/25)/(20/15/40)
...would the NLH sequence look like this?
(38/38)/(38/33)/(28/38)
...or like this?
(38/38)/(38/33)/(28/23)

[Valefort]

(38/38)/(38/33)/(28/38)

[Rudolph]

Thanks, Valefort! That's a clear answer.