Storage Removed, what do we do?!

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ValerieJean
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by ValerieJean » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:33 pm

Oh heaven's please do not get rid of the disguise muling option. If it's only for the RP reasoning, it can be said that XYZ character traded it across, it's just skipping that step is all.

The only issues I can see are people forgetting to drop the disguised name before logging out. What other issues could there be?

This as Kopo said is very convenient, very nice personally. How it is currently, doesn't hinder any RP to be had. People can still have that RP if they want. So other than 'something is tedious/we want people to RP this out to made it tedious' what reason is there to drop the ability to disguise swap?

Personally I would rather RP about things going on with the server, buying/selling, and etc over "Hey, hey you hold this for....this guy/girl I just met!" [Who shouldn't have such interaction or knowledge of the item getting passed over honestly as that seems odd unless you play it off as 'bought' which is just cheesy at that point.]

Then you also run into the issue of losing an item if you are a new person because lets say you have another character but the item found is more useful on your other alt.

You now have to resort to selling it through Mudds and buying it fast before someone else does.
Dropping it somewhere on the ground/in a campfire and praying to the gods no one jacks it.
Or looking for a IC trustworthy character who gets the nice item and then says SEE YA as in this decision you just made stealing items legitimate as if it were a campfire. Which honestly I think is a nice thing to have on the server but, we know how people are with their good items, if it was taken from a campfire, even OOCly, by the gods there would be hell to pay and people are usually banned for doing so. Yet, because you are having people try to do so IC it is again allowing them freely to take the item without repercussions except IC ones.

[Again I'm for being able to take items given to me ICly, because yay thieves, to hold but if stealing from a campfire is an offense then what now? Will it still be an offense? Will we be allowed to steal from horse packs too?]

Anyways it may be too late to say anything against this decided change but I do not believe it is a good decision to make for RP reasons.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by thids » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:29 am

ValerieJean wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:33 pm
Oh heaven's please do not get rid of the disguise muling option. If it's only for the RP reasoning, it can be said that XYZ character traded it across, it's just skipping that step is all.

The only issues I can see are people forgetting to drop the disguised name before logging out. What other issues could there be?

This as Kopo said is very convenient, very nice personally. How it is currently, doesn't hinder any RP to be had. People can still have that RP if they want. So other than 'something is tedious/we want people to RP this out to made it tedious' what reason is there to drop the ability to disguise swap?

Personally I would rather RP about things going on with the server, buying/selling, and etc over "Hey, hey you hold this for....this guy/girl I just met!" [Who shouldn't have such interaction or knowledge of the item getting passed over honestly as that seems odd unless you play it off as 'bought' which is just cheesy at that point.]

Then you also run into the issue of losing an item if you are a new person because lets say you have another character but the item found is more useful on your other alt.

You now have to resort to selling it through Mudds and buying it fast before someone else does.
Dropping it somewhere on the ground/in a campfire and praying to the gods no one jacks it.
Or looking for a IC trustworthy character who gets the nice item and then says SEE YA as in this decision you just made stealing items legitimate as if it were a campfire. Which honestly I think is a nice thing to have on the server but, we know how people are with their good items, if it was taken from a campfire, even OOCly, by the gods there would be hell to pay and people are usually banned for doing so. Yet, because you are having people try to do so IC it is again allowing them freely to take the item without repercussions except IC ones.

[Again I'm for being able to take items given to me ICly, because yay thieves, to hold but if stealing from a campfire is an offense then what now? Will it still be an offense? Will we be allowed to steal from horse packs too?]

Anyways it may be too late to say anything against this decided change but I do not believe it is a good decision to make for RP reasons.
No one said that OOC muling is not allowed, everyone is free to mule in the nexus or anywhere else for that matter. As I understand it, this was removed because the staff wants the storage system to be more of an IC thing, not even a full IC thing (as that would require actual rules related to the storage system). Has nothing to do with making muling exclusively IC.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Ravial » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:33 am

Basically what thids's saying. Nobody has ever spoken that any muling is forbidden. I think that entire conjecture is quuuuiiiite a bit of an exaggeration.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Fury_US » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:41 am

Even during a period of time when a full refund RCR is not in effect, the number of lost or stolen items issue is not negligible, I'm betting. During a full RCR period, I'm going to bet the entire staff can literally do nothing but handle those kinds of issues.

All solved, with one changed query.


One.

Changed.

Query.

And nobody can say that the storage system is an IC thing when my characters are literally walking up to random merchants and asking them to store my stuff. To call that IC is frankly preposterous- I work in retail, and can tell you real damn quick what I'm going to tell someone who asks if they can leave all their (#2) with me to watch. It is, and always has been an OOC convenience in order to keep players happy. Which I totally agree with. So if you're to continue allowing OOC muling, keep it safe and less of a hassle for EVERYONE involved. Make it account bound, and worry about other things way, WAY more important to IC activities and immersion like... I don't know... consequences for outlandlishly OOC names, ridiculous actions, etc.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:51 am

Working in modern retail is kinda different to going to an innkeep (replace modern equivalent - hotel) and asking to store your important stuff in their lockboxes and/or lockers, though. Ideally, this service should be moved entirely to innkeepers and banks and not general merchants, thus linking back to that other thread where people wanted more activity in inns. Having to use them alone for storage is one method of making players traverse them. Perhaps even make it a paid service (who stores people's stuff for free???)

As for the reasoning, there is an exploit being patched here. I know because I found it and I 100% support the change.
Last edited by Tsidkenu on Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by thids » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:59 am

Tsidkenu wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:51 am
Working in modern retail is kinda different to going to an innkeep (replace modern equivalent - hotel) and asking to store your important stuff in their lockboxes and/or lockers, though. Ideally, this service should be moved entirely to innkeepers and banks and not general merchants, thus linking back to that other thread where people wanted more activity in inns. Having to use them alone for storage is one method of making players traverse them.

As for the reasoning, there is an exploit being patched here. I know because I found it and I 100% support the change.
That's a good idea.

As for the exploit argument, I honestly don't care one way or another as I very rarely even use the storage system, but one could also argue that bugs/exploits in video games often become features. I can think of several examples of the top of my head.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:04 am

And this ain't a feature this server wants nor needs.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Ithilan » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:11 am

Tsidkenu wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:51 am
Working in modern retail is kinda different to going to an innkeep (replace modern equivalent - hotel) and asking to store your important stuff in their lockboxes and/or lockers, though. Ideally, this service should be moved entirely to innkeepers and banks and not general merchants, thus linking back to that other thread where people wanted more activity in inns. Having to use them alone for storage is one method of making players traverse them. Perhaps even make it a paid service (who stores people's stuff for free???)

As for the reasoning, there is an exploit being patched here. I know because I found it and I 100% support the change.
This.. a bank would be kinda interesting to have. Or make it an inn feature yeah, adding a gold fee would be nice really, 100gp per item stored or what not. I can think of a lot of RP this could promote for various types of characters.

I still think the whole argument as to convenience and theft or what not, is very exaggerated. It is not like any of you are withtout a lot of friends on the server, that would happily help transfer these few items now and again.

I have never ever used the disguise kit for the storage and I transfer a whole bunch of crap on regular across characters, ive never met any one on here that wasnt willing to help or stole said items. I never campfire mule either, because of its unreliable nature, just spam eawd with your mule requests lads. :lol:

But no, on a serious note, this is such a minor thing, I think it is heavily exaggerated how detrimental it is of a change. I will happily help any of you transfer items, IC or OOC, just ask :roll:
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:59 am

Ithilan wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:11 am
I still think the whole argument as to convenience and theft or what not, is very exaggerated. It is not like any of you are withtout a lot of friends on the server, that would happily help transfer these few items now and again.
An NPC is on demand while the server is available, which has higher availability for access than other willing and trusted players to address a mechanical issue. Not only is one person previously inconvenienced to handle said mechanical issue instead of being a participant in game but now two are. The items are going to move between characters of the same account, whether someone puts faith in another player or puts faith in the server not crashing before they can reclaim it. For RCR'ing these typically last quite a bit longer than five minutes as the player sets up their aesthetics and first level character sheet, followed by how long the bartering pages are involved.

With player <-> campfire / drop on the ground scenarios, the item can be lost from theft and or the server crashing. When the player left their character is saved, meaning they'll attempt recovery through DMs / Admins.

With player <-> player scenarios, the item can be lost when OriginalPC logs off, invoking the character save event, and TemporaryMulerPC doesn't save after the original barter handoff (This does happen).

There are many problems when the disguise system is combined with another, so while that element would make sense to no longer support with storage it makes sense to to me to leave inevitable OOC mechanical response as mechanical and work on the OOC faults NWN2 exposes in the transfer of items where a "medium rp" server is concerned. 10 years of this module's uptime and only once did I personally see someone ICly muling even before storage and disguise was a feature. After storage's availability OOC muling still prevailed, the ratio whereupon all of us have had someone hold our stuff OOCly for a transfer versus actually taking the time to roleplay about the ordeal leans heavily in one direction, making the argument for pushing item transfers to be an IC thing hard to defend. If you wanted to minimize muling, RCR and Item Level Restriction would be the two things to resolve, the latter being reversible.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Fury_US » Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:44 pm

Ithilan wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:11 am

I still think the whole argument as to convenience and theft or what not, is very exaggerated. It is not like any of you are withtout a lot of friends on the server, that would happily help transfer these few items now and again.

I have never ever used the disguise kit for the storage and I transfer a whole bunch of crap on regular across characters, ive never met any one on here that wasnt willing to help or stole said items. I never campfire mule either, because of its unreliable nature, just spam eawd with your mule requests lads. :lol:

But no, on a serious note, this is such a minor thing, I think it is heavily exaggerated how detrimental it is of a change. I will happily help any of you transfer items, IC or OOC, just ask :roll:
I have logged in many times to see players going around the nexus saying “Can you hold my stuff”. Often I have to refuse because I simply have zero room to hold anything more than a few items, and I certainly can’t take several pages worth for an RCR. As for asking friends- if they’re already in game, I’ll be asking them to depart whatever it is they are doing, abandon whatever RP they are in, or outright barge into their RP with my OOC request. I have had people I’m RPing with log onto mule characters for twenty+ minutes to go help a friend. I have had complete strangers step into my RP asking me if I can hold some things for them. I have had to get my husband to stop what he is doing, and log onto the game in order to help me move some things around.

That’s not over exaggerating, that’s just what I’ve seen and been a part of- and I do not really play the RCR game, or the alt game. For people who do, I would imagine their circumstances of finding someone available to help at whatever moment they are going to RCR or try to equip an alt tends to lean toward “pain in the butt”, than it does “easily found”.

Nor does this cover when the situation invariably goes awry. Please do a forum search for “campfire theft”, and see how many times that pops up, and in how many threads. It’s been addressed by the Admins several times since I’ve been on the server, and that’s only been three years. Even more frequently is the instability of the server, and how a crash can wipe a person’s entire inventory. Do a search on campfire muling, and see how many times the Admins have had to make announcements about that and how unsafe it is, as well.

And all of that? Goes away, with One. Changed. Query.

Insisting storage remain an IC thing while allowing OOC muling is just illogical. I do not know a single soul who utilizes storage in an IC manner, given the number of other things we all can focus our time on that furthers or develops our characters goals.

If the staff wants to foster IC interactions, how about go answer some of that IC PM backlog, instead of fretting how Character X got Character Y’s sword of slaying, when it’s not even illegal for that to happen.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Valefort » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:09 pm

Then perhaps an account wide storage in the nexus, which is completely OOC anyway, but then sensible IC storage points in game.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Maecius » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:10 pm

Something worth talking about staff side, Vale, sure.

Fury_US, this decision was made largely on the development side of the plate, not by the DMs. It's also not inherently illogical (to me) for storage to be in character on an RP server.

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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by whatsittoya » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:14 pm

I was pretty shocked when I found out re-gifting wasn't a no-no here. That one's characters can't exchange information, but they can exchange stuff, even if the exchange is OOC and that stuff just fell off the back of a truck and your character found it.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Fury_US » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:09 pm

Maecius wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:10 pm
Something worth talking about staff side, Vale, sure.

Fury_US, this decision was made largely on the development side of the plate, not by the DMs. It's also not inherently illogical (to me) for storage to be in character on an RP server.
If this were a Heavy RP server then I could see merit in that argument. It is not- BGTSCC prides itself on being open and supporting to multiple playstyles in an effort to keep people interested in a waning, aged game. Medium RP, however, dictates you’re going to have a number of people who are interested in some casual RP and exploring content, some that just want to do content, and some who want to RP almost exclusively. Those who want to RP almost exclusively are already policing their own actions when it comes to how storage is handled- Going to bet those who do not believe in muling items, probably already aren’t, because they’re adults playing the game they want to without arbitrarily enforced rules and systems in place making them do it.

As for the decision being a Dev one and not a DM one- maybe a conversation between the two should happen, to discover how much DM time is devoted to handling these kinds of issues versus being actual DMs. And then ask the playerbase as a whole, while they’re at it.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Charraj » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:25 pm

I'd be in favor of just making muling illegal. This would include a ban on asking other toons to sell/give items to our alts. We could give everyone a one-month grace period so they can get their items all sorted out. Then from that point on, everything has to be 100% IC.

I'll note that I play quite a few alts, so this would hurt me as much as (if not more than) most people.

Muling was originally tolerated because of a lack of storage options. We now have storage, so I don't see the need for muling.

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