Storage Removed, what do we do?!

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Endelyon
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Endelyon » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:55 pm

Fury_US wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:09 pm
As for the decision being a Dev one and not a DM one- maybe a conversation between the two should happen, to discover how much DM time is devoted to handling these kinds of issues versus being actual DMs. And then ask the playerbase as a whole, while they’re at it.
What issues would this be causing the DMs? How could this possibly merit a DM discussion? DMs aren't the ones continuously fixing the character vaults when people disguise over their alt names and end up with missing characters when they go to log in. I'm tired of spending time fixing these bugs that people cause by disguising their name to some other PC's name, and as it turns out the switch to make it check for a real name and discourage this behavior is a pretty simple one.

As to whether or not we'll allow muling, OOC storage, or anything else it's a discussion that will happen separately. This was a server announcement for a change that's already in the pipeline as a result of a tangible and recurring problem. I don't think it's something that the staff should be rightfully called to "defend" in the first place.

I'm really not a fan of account-wide storage, and I don't know that it will ultimately go in, but it might. If it does, it's not going to be because people made impassioned speeches about it in this forum thread. We'll evaluate as a staff the direction we want to move in that regard, and that's all I can promise for now.

Keep in mind two years ago we didn't have storage at all, so let's not pretend things will be overall worse.

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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:19 pm

It took some two years to realize the problem with disguise and storage... It is the correct decision but after two years, its normal that some complain since it was convenient
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Ithilan » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am

Charraj wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:25 pm
I'd be in favor of just making muling illegal. This would include a ban on asking other toons to sell/give items to our alts. We could give everyone a one-month grace period so they can get their items all sorted out. Then from that point on, everything has to be 100% IC.

I'll note that I play quite a few alts, so this would hurt me as much as (if not more than) most people.

Muling was originally tolerated because of a lack of storage options. We now have storage, so I don't see the need for muling.

AMIRITE GUYS???

... *flees*
Im all for this :p but id also welcome a vault wipe and clean slate for the server, though im probably the only one that wants that ^^
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:58 am

I don't get why you think that Heavy RP = no global storage. In my eyes, this simply doesn't correlate with eachother, and having a convenient global storage doesn't make our RP any worse, I'd tell you that. As for where the character got the items — does it really matter? It's really insuffecient. Having a global storage is very handy and only improves quality of life without reducing quality of RP, what is the point of getting us rid of this opportunity? I understand that the current storage system is being shut down due to mechanical reasons, but why changing the new system that will come in place of it to "character-only" storage? As I mentioned, that is just losing much without gaining literally anything.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Fury_US » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:32 am

I simply suggest open discourse between Dev and DM primarily because DMs are- for the most part- the first point of contact between Staff and player- they, as well as other branches of the staff, may very well have insight into certain aspects that can make reaching the best solution an easier thing to do, rather than arbitrarily deciding on a course of action or change that's sole reason essentially lay in "Because I can".

I'm not saying this isn't an issue that needs rectified- never have. The disguise system is, IMO a pain in the arse that leaves me very often wandering around with my disguise name because I forgot to toggle it off. It's always been a work around, and had the inherent problems to go with it- so making a change there is certainly warranted, and I don't personally take issue with that. The part I'm taking issue with is the fact that an extremely simple fix does exist, could be quickly implemented that would solve the problems not only for Devs, but for other branches of staff as well as players, and so far there has yet to be any form of explanation that offers a valid reason NOT to do it, other than "I don't agree with this playstyle, despite it being accepted on the server, and therefore I won't facilitate it", rather than finding out what a general server consensus is, and actively trying to foster a greater sense of community in this one last bastion of NWN2

As for not understanding staff being called to defend decisions that come down out of the blue and take away something that has been handy for a lot of people for a long time, well... unpleasant as it may be, that's just a whole part of this grand thing called a social contract. If you want to see the server to continue to succeed, then there just simply needs to be a greater communication in place, between every level of the server staff and players.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Svabodnik » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 am

The server rule that alt characters, played by a single player, cannot interact with one another is entirely an OoC metagame-based rule. It pays respect to that this is in fact a game, and the number of actors is vastly inferior to the number of roles being played. It’s not that a living being is deleted from existence and suddenly replaced by another the moment the actor changes their outfit. In that regard, for full RP consistency, there’s nothing illogical in-setting about the entirety of a single player’s cast of characters from knowing one another, liking one another, and subsequently exchanging gear with one another. It’s not about the RP, it’s about the metagame surrounding the RP, and the reality that this is a game world. Rulings against ‘muling’ are, by necessity, OoC.

Accessing ‘storage’, if kept completely ‘in character’ in the manner the server is currently, vastly under-represents the options to stash yo junk if you consider a Monty Haul play of D&D. Just off the top of my head, Bag of Holding, Portable Hole, Heward’s Handy Haversack, Quiver of Elhonna, Glove of Storage… not to mention specific spell-uses of things like Rope Trick or Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion for easily-accessible extradimensional spaces. Going mundane, you have everything available from the lore-appropriate “I put this in the safe hands of Waukeenar temple XYZ” to “I buried it in the woods at location ZYX”. Realistically, any NPC for gear storage may just be an abstraction under a larger scheme of roleplayed inventory management for any singular existing character.

Trying to narrow down to a point, if you want to tie RP consequence to NPC interaction (i.e. for a storage option), it’s a fool’s errand. For a moment, consider the dialogue trees available, and then soon after, playing a mute character. I don’t think anyone seriously considers their interaction with the NPCs fully represented in-game. Honestly, the best approach I’ve to this was ‘Divnity: Original Sin II’ that instead provided a summary of a possible interaction for its dialogue options. Ultimately, NPC interactions are in the same way abstracted for the player as the HP pool is a representation of how hale and hearty the character is.

tl;dr: It’s a game. Different players play it with different expectations. Players that want to eke something specific out of it will constrain their playstyle to what that specific something. Personally, I’m for account-wide storage. If there’s a way or means to sort it under different categories (equippables, scrolls, gems, etc.), bonus points.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by electric mayhem » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:44 am

Svabodnik wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 am
If there’s a way or means to sort it under different categories (equippables, scrolls, gems, etc.), bonus points.
This... PLEASE. I have... I mean Claret has ALOT of wine. Won't need to have a mule character named Wine anymore. She doesn't trust storing wine on the horse (besides it being bad for storage quality), she just doesn't plain old trust the horse. She named it "Tipsy" for a reason.


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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Hammer_Song » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:27 am

We have Bags of Holding in game (or at least we did last time I was able to log in). Maybe all PC’s could be created with a permanent inventory item labelled “storage/bank/whatever”. Using that represents a character using a local storage system, whether it’s a bank or merchant or whatever.
I personally like the idea of storage being tied to PC rather than account but I guess that’s because of how my characters are set up and that obviously isn’t applicable to everyone.

Edit: I personally like the idea of a nexus NPC that is tied to character. Easy access, very OOC granted - but then again, musing is OOC now.
Last edited by Hammer_Song on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Svabodnik » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:36 am

Hammer_Song wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:27 am
We have Bags of Holding in game
Which ancient tomb must I lovingly lick the dust off of to get access to this?
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:56 am

electric mayhem wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:44 am
Svabodnik wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 am
If there’s a way or means to sort it under different categories (equippables, scrolls, gems, etc.), bonus points.
This... PLEASE. I have... I mean Claret has ALOT of wine. Won't need to have a mule character named Wine anymore. She doesn't trust storing wine on the horse (besides it being bad for storage quality), she just doesn't plain old trust the horse. She named it "Tipsy" for a reason.
Rather than worrying over static categories like gauntlet, boots, etc, I had a thought that players could set "tags" to their categories to sort as they see fit.
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Hammer_Song » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:05 am

Svabodnik wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:36 am
Hammer_Song wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:27 am
We have Bags of Holding in game
Which ancient tomb must I lovingly lick the dust off of to get access to this?
Well, I'm not saying they're common, far from it ... but they do exist. So therefore the mechanics exist. I don't think it's the best option either btw, but it could satisfy needs from the player base (ease of access to items) and from the admin side (storage tied to a character).
However, as I mentioned above, I think a storage NPC in the nexus that is tied to character probably does this better along with merchant NPC's who store gear at various places around the server.
In regards to muling between characters it can still be done the old-fashioned way. After all, admin haven't banned it but they don't neccesarily need to help make it easier either. Find a friend and move gear if you want ...
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by ValerieJean » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:31 pm

Account wide storage!
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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Theodore01 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:27 pm

ValerieJean wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:31 pm
Account wide storage!
That !

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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by chambordini » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:28 pm

Ithilan wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am
Charraj wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:25 pm
I'd be in favor of just making muling illegal. This would include a ban on asking other toons to sell/give items to our alts. We could give everyone a one-month grace period so they can get their items all sorted out. Then from that point on, everything has to be 100% IC.

I'll note that I play quite a few alts, so this would hurt me as much as (if not more than) most people.

Muling was originally tolerated because of a lack of storage options. We now have storage, so I don't see the need for muling.

AMIRITE GUYS???

... *flees*
Im all for this :p but id also welcome a vault wipe and clean slate for the server, though im probably the only one that wants that ^^
I'd like muling to end too, even though I do it plenty, the server would be much better off without OOC muling/twinking overall, and honestly, considering the amount (a ton) of duped items that have been in circulation for as many years as the server has existed, I'd not mind a servervault wipe too, or some form of soft wipe, we have the tools to scan every bic and make changes as we see fit.

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Re: Storage Removed, what do we do?!

Unread post by Planehopper » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:41 pm

Firstly, I dont see a huge deal with the storage situation. As has been said, we lived for years without any storage at all. I actually enjoy the modicum of in-character-ness that the current system provides.

Secondly, I think I agree with Chambordini, and think that is the only way it makes sense; if we ban muling we must do a vault wipe.

Full disclosure, I mule on most characters I play. Most folks do, I think, especially those that have been here a while and find something juicy. My issue with banning it (if I have any issues at all) is that it would be a judgment call by the DMs and sporadic at best. How do you monitor an item that has changed hands a few times before landing back with another character on the same account? What does banning muling do to merchant RP? How can you allow RCRing but not allow muling? How does this impact those characters that have been storing items for years based off of status quo and multiple-admin statements that its allowed? We cant just lock items to characters while there are completely-legal mules about.

To me the manpower/issues that are possible arent worth the benefits.

That said, I would be all for a vault wipe, especially when crafting comes on line. If we are to use gems or other materials for crafting that are already in game (and possibly hoarded by those in the know) it makes sense for everyone to start with a fresh slate. I can tell you now that I have very much to lose in such a scenario, perhaps more than most.. as I have a lot of desired items, many high level characters, and very very little play time these days. A vault wipe would set me back to nearly impossible-to-recover levels.
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