Master Alchemist and Expenses

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Zethrenx99
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Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Zethrenx99 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:33 pm

I had made this topic once back in the day but I cant seem to find it so I am going to revamp it again here. The fact of the matter is PC brewed potions/elixers/alchemist fire are just too expensive. The issue I find primarily comes in the fact that many of the more important or more enticing potions are already sold by npc merchants for prices that are much less than even the base cost for a master alchemist! While the other more RP oriented or nuanced potions are so outrageously expensive that even the wealthiest of RPers have so far avoided them. Take for example sending: you can send a message to anyone you know! Certainly something a person would find enticing if not for the fact that the minimum cost is around 1500 gold to brew. Now if we look at alchemist fire, 150 per vile for a one time use 2d6 reflex save vs none (most of the time) item with a minute long fire dmg bonus to weapons? (or less than a minute). As an alchemist i dont even use alchemist fire because its just too freakin expensive to maintain for such little bonus. Even compared to the Techsmith of Gond's smokepoweder bombs. . . Sure they do a lot more damage and 350 gold for 13d6 points of damage is nothing to scoff at. . . if it wasn't a delayed fireblast effect! I have yet to find a situation where i can actually make good use of the damage where it would be meaningful for that price as you have to hit a target or a target has to pass through the area within a few rounds. This means that you can't use it in combat against mobs with a well aimed toss without blowing yourself or your friends up in the process.

Solution? Well for starters i think one of two things: first, potions which are sold by merchants meet minimum price requirements set by PnP which is 50xCLxSL. This will make things harder primarily for newer characters that may need the magical boost and may not have access to or know about PC alchemist. Or second, we have a better progression for cost reduction in the master alchemist class even if that means extending the class beyond 5 lvls and making spell progression 2/3's or something. Additionally, I think the staff needs to reconsider their position on minimum CL for particular spell effects. Min CL should always be set to the actual min CL for the spell, that is 1 for first, 3 for second, 5 for third ect. This will reduce the cost of some of the less popular potion effects that are very situational to begin with so that such RP type potions would be used more often. I personally don't understand what the reason behind a min CL of 15 for bulls strength is while you can purchase CL 3 versions for much cheaper at NPC's. Or Shadow Barrier which acts essentially as shield + a tiny bit of concealment - immunity to magic missile at CL9 making it 10x more expensive than shield. Finally, I think alchemist should get a daily ability to throw alchemist fire similar to pathfinder with additional uses as you progress through the class WITH a reduction to the cost of crafting alchemist fire to scale with the alchemists level, I.E. instead of 150 for each flask, 150 for the batch which the alchemist makes such that at level 5 the alchemists essentially makes them for 50gp each.

So what about balance in the market for scroll makers and wand makers? A wand can be recharged, has several uses and takes up less space but requires UMD (although it is a pretty small amount that is needed I will add it.) Wands require an investment of a single feat. Scrolls are always going to be the cheapest option as is present in their base price but require a much higher amount of umd to use making it reserved for specific classes. Scrolls are a necessity for the alchemist as well as most wizards since it is the only way to truly make use of the expansive spell list the class has to offer. This creates its own demand in the right circles (we could even look to limiting the access of scrolls sold by npcs and upping the prices of them to match base crafting requirements). Scribe scroll is a no feat investment ability for wizards. Meanwhile, the master alchemist requires a 2 feat, 2 skill and 5 level investment, Must wait a substantial amount of time between batches of brews due to the rest mechanic, and has to deal with non stackable magic bottles! (-,- this is more of a personal issue but still! can we get them to stack please?)

So whats the purpose and why should we focus on crafting PC's? Well first i think it promotes a wealth of RP. There is certainly a unique feeling when you know that all the gear you have was made with the time of a real life person that you can talk and stab or what have you. It promotes community growth, plot hooks for DM's, and vessels for the persistent world's progression and development. I think that a PC should always be able to make anything that can be sold in bulk by npcs and for cheaper *assuming a little to no profit margin* So long as that PC has dedicated themselves to the craft.

EDIT: After testing the alchemist fire it looks like the description is just completely wrong, the damage must be somewhere of 15d6 with no save? I'm still not quite sure but it is certainly better than i had thought due to the description!
Last edited by Zethrenx99 on Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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metaquad4
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by metaquad4 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:32 am

I agree wholeheartedly. Crafting isn't going to be a big thing if the farming costs are this unreasonable. Be it potions, or crafting once it actually comes in.

Pricing currently tends to favour more hardcore grinders rather than casual RPers. I used to hardcore grind back when I had time in school so I didn't see that issue as much, but with a job that allows me limited playtime (which is better spent RPing), it basically sends the message: You chose RP over grinding? Tough, you shouldn't have been RPing! It very much does feel like an MMO (which I do enjoy, but I like MMOs with good mechanics which nwn2 is certainly not).

Fire-Flasks are well-priced at the moment. Perfected ones do about 70-110 Fire Damage when thrown, not sure about putting them on your weapon. They make for a very good fall-back weapon (unless you are fighting one of the many enemies who are immune to fire).
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Ewe » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:19 pm

I could be wrong on this, but it would seem like a deliberate design choice to make potion crafting very expensive. This would reduce the potential power creep, or the feeling that having a full row of potion buffs is mandatory in pve.

I agree that it has the downsides of limiting some RP options with use of obscure potions, but at the same time I find it hard to think of good RP uses of such without it being some sort of gimmick that would lose its welcome rather quickly.

That aside, as a power-gamer, I would love to have readily available, cheap potions of all kinds!

Zethrenx99
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Zethrenx99 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:54 pm

Ewe wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:19 pm
I could be wrong on this, but it would seem like a deliberate design choice to make potion crafting very expensive. This would reduce the potential power creep, or the feeling that having a full row of potion buffs is mandatory in pve.

I agree that it has the downsides of limiting some RP options with use of obscure potions, but at the same time I find it hard to think of good RP uses of such without it being some sort of gimmick that would lose its welcome rather quickly.

That aside, as a power-gamer, I would love to have readily available, cheap potions of all kinds!
Then you're in luck! since as I stated all of the more important and enticing potions can be purchased by npcs for upwards of 1/10th the base cost to craft them. I know my original post was rather long and wordy so i'll try to summarize, NPC's sell amazing potions for cheaper than master alchemist can craft them, master alchemist is a prc which primarily benefits from the ability to craft said potions for cheap. As a solution, make the npc potions more expensive or make crafting potions less expensive to match the prices.

Basically you can already do exactly what you stated but through npcs rather than pcs. I hope that clarify's things alittle!
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Ewe
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Ewe » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:00 pm

Yea that makes a lot of sense. I must admit, I did skim the wall of text a bit. Sorry if I misunderstood. I'm not sure the level of effort to implement new costs for every single potion - hopefully it's not such that you have to adjust every single individual potion.

Zethrenx99
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Zethrenx99 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:28 pm

Ewe wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:00 pm
Yea that makes a lot of sense. I must admit, I did skim the wall of text a bit. Sorry if I misunderstood. I'm not sure the level of effort to implement new costs for every single potion - hopefully it's not such that you have to adjust every single individual potion.
No worries at all! Just wanted to make sure that everything was stated well for anyone else who comes along this thread ^^,.
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Valefort » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:50 am

Solution is simply to make all those potions sold by NPCs more expensive !
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by VDub » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:31 am

Valefort wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:50 am
Solution is simply to make all those potions sold by NPCs more expensive !
This isn't serious, is it?
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Valefort » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:32 am

Why not ? Seriously.
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by VDub » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:38 am

For the same reason the idea of adding a gold cost to raise dead and resurrection scrolls to cover the Diamond material component got shot down.

"It's not fair to new players. They rely on them to survive."
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Valefort » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:22 am

But it's false, they don't rely on them to survive at all.
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by VDub » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:50 am

Valefort wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:22 am
But it's false, they don't rely on them to survive at all.

Image

Fire will surely kill a troll...
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Zethrenx99
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Zethrenx99 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:02 pm

On the topic of expenses, i did some experimentation with divine based master alchemist and found the costs are equally as absurd for them. The prime example is from cure moderate wounds potions (60gp from npc) minimal cost is 250gp in elixir form, 500 for a normal potion.
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Blackman D
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Blackman D » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:15 pm

the issue here is npc cost vs player cost

what people may not understand about that issue is that player cost actually follows the rules, every crafting area has a set formula for its pricing that follows the pnp rules, and yes it can get very expensive, its suppose to be

the npc prices do not follow any set formula but rather take a percentage of item base value and increases that value or decreases that value depending on if they are buying or selling the item, which is something that is set in the toolset for each npc

root problem: changing player aka base rule pricing would involve messing with 2DA files and can potentially mess with other things; whereas changing npc prices involves a little toolset tweaking

so if things are intended to be set fairly, then yea increasing the npc prices would be a serious consideration and one that will probably have to be addressed anyway if crafting actually makes it in because that will open up a brand new player market, one that npcs may undercut and take away from
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Zethrenx99
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Re: Master Alchemist and Expenses

Unread post by Zethrenx99 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:20 pm

Blackman D wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:15 pm
the issue here is npc cost vs player cost

what people may not understand about that issue is that player cost actually follows the rules, every crafting area has a set formula for its pricing that follows the pnp rules, and yes it can get very expensive, its suppose to be

the npc prices do not follow any set formula but rather take a percentage of item base value and increases that value or decreases that value depending on if they are buying or selling the item, which is something that is set in the toolset for each npc

root problem: changing player aka base rule pricing would involve messing with 2DA files and can potentially mess with other things; whereas changing npc prices involves a little toolset tweaking

so if things are intended to be set fairly, then yea increasing the npc prices would be a serious consideration and one that will probably have to be addressed anyway if crafting actually makes it in because that will open up a brand new player market, one that npcs may undercut and take away from
Well problem is the PnP rules are based off of the general loot distribution by level that is not seen on this server. Players can easily afford to spend a few thousand on potions and such under level 5. I think for this module it would be better to scale down the costs of item creation feats to meet the demands of npcs than the other way around. Its hard enough for non power gamer players at early to mid levels without making everything cost more.
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