Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

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Grendunor
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Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Grendunor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:41 am

Revision: 2483
Author: chambordini
Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2019 12:58:21 PM
Message:
Tweaked Shadow Conjuration to work like in PNP.
----
So lets go over the old version of Shadow conjuration and what it was primarily used for.

Shadow conjuration 4th circle Choose one:
Mage armour - Very good use
Darkness - Situationally very useful
Invisibility - Obvious utility
Summon shadow - Low level summon with a stat line that makes it useless even in RP

New shadow Conjuration:
Grease: useful though only for the +4 DC of being cast from this slot
Caltrops: Just no, the ten tickles from the tentacle caltrops should be fixed.
Web: Same as Grease useful only for the increased DC
Conjure Shadows: Summon 1-3 level 6 undead ((it's a trap))
Mestils Acid Breath: No. Just no.
Stinking cloud: Bit of a stinker
Summon Creature 3: Same as above
Summon Shadow: Little utility
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay so now we have pre-patch version and post-patch version layed out lets discuss what exactly was the intention behind this change and if it was even wanted or warranted.

The pre-patch spell itself has some very obvious utility and a great pick for bards the way it was implemented giving them access to a spell that otherwise was unavailable to the class (Mage Armour)
Coupled with the ability to spend a higher level spell slot for the choice between a globe of Darkness or invisibility Shadow conjuration was a fantastic spell and functioned in a great way. Conjure Shadow had utility for RP flavour if one happened to be playing a very niche RP aspect of a Maskarian bard or Wizard.
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:51 am

I'd also add that caltrops is a seriously bugged spell. For example, its actual area of effect is MUCH bigger than the casting circle, and outside this casting circle it randomly damages npcs, making them hostile. Moreover, caltrops are vulnerable to mind-affecting spells, including confusion, dominate monster etc etc, which is a complete nonsense.

p.s. Imho, that's not the most needless nerf in this update...
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Nemni
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Nemni » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:21 am

Not every change is just about balance. The intention (afaik) is to make the illusion school in general be more like actual illusions with disbelief mechanics, which I think is a very cool concept.

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Wolfrayne
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Wolfrayne » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 am

Perhaps reverting it to the old way it was until the spell in its entirety is correctly finished with access to all the spells it should have access to?
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Grendunor
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Grendunor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:30 am

The intention is great sadly the function is not there. This should honestly be reverted until it can function correctly.
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mrm3ntalist
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:33 am

Nemni wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:21 am
Not every change is just about balance. The intention (afaik) is to make the illusion school in general be more like actual illusions with disbelief mechanics, which I think is a very cool concept.
Cool? There is no reason to use this spell atm. The DCs are all over the place, the targeting is iffy and the functionality of the spell as we knew it is removed.

Yes this spell is now an illusion - of its former functionality - and the only disbelief mechanic, is when you actually use it and cant believe what you are seeing.

PS. Pray for the school of illusion
Last edited by mrm3ntalist on Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Winterborne
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Winterborne » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:36 am

I like the idea of making it work like PnP. If it worked fully that way. You'd get the same functionality. But right now you get a pretty inferior choice of spells. Should work fully the new way so you don't lose spells or not at all.

Or at minimum if you are going to convert it over in parts, you should make sure the old spells you could cast with it are included in the new version's first incarnation so that functionality is only gained rather than lost with a need for more patches until you get back what you lost.
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Endelyon
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Endelyon » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:36 am

We can copy the old version of the spell into a different spell called "Minor spell cloning," or something along those lines, though a big nerf is coming to Darkness if I can ever remember to put it in, it will match its vanilla functionality once more and not break enemy AI/line of sight. Shadow Conjuration and its Greater Component will likely stay as the PNP equivalent in any case as Disbelief (and removing it) is going to be a component of Shadowcraft Mage.

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Grendunor
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Grendunor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:45 am

I hardly think the Darkness nerf is needed either. It has counterplay with blindsight which can be taken as a caster or used via scroll for any build even with UMD non-class skill.

Honestly, I think staff should poll if a change is needed before cowboying their way into changing things. Releveling is a pain and player requests for RcR's if they get approve are only going to make more work for the DMs.

Edit: Furthermore as a caster creative use of spells like that should be encouraged not penalised Martial Classes (ones I main) have the ability to chunk away at mobs with AB vs AC but wizard and spell caster classes either end up with brain dead summon play or being bloody rain man trying to blaster mobs with Save DC's that would make a bard blackguard with evasion moist.
Last edited by Grendunor on Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Endelyon
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Endelyon » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:48 am

Grendunor wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:45 am
I hardly think the Darkness nerf is needed either. It has counterplay with blindsight which can be taken as a caster or used via scroll for any build even with UMD non-class skill.

Honestly, I think staff should poll if a change is needed before cowboying their way into changing things. Releveling is a pain and player requests for RcR's if they get approve are only going to make more work for the DMs.
We don't design the server by popular demand or a show of hands, and the Darkness change was unintentional. I'm sure it's well liked because it completely breaks monster AI and trivializes every single encounter on the server, I abused it plenty on my Warlock too. :P Whether or not this one will get reverted is not a question, a level 1 spell isn't supposed to be this powerful.

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chambordini
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by chambordini » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:49 am

It should work mostly like https://dndtools.net/spells/players-han ... ion--2699/
You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces.
Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.
Shadow conjurations are actually one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength.
Any creature that interacts with the conjured object, force, or creature can make a Will save to recognize its true nature.
Spells that deal damage, such as Melf's acid arrow, have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save.
Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack.
If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur.
Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration's level (5th) rather than the spell's normal level.
In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not.
Shadow objects or substances, such as obscuring mist, have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them.
Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.
A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it's recognized as shadowy).
It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses.
The 20 percent could be tuned to something like 40 percent, but it's supposed to be weak against targets that disbelieve and have full effects against targets that fail the DCs, mage armor can be readded, I just couldn't find a proper way to give it a disbelief mechanic.

I don't see any reason it should have invisibility or darkness, it's called shadow conjuration.

Anyway it's not intended as a nerf, it's intended to become more like their pnp mechanics, give the illusion spells some depth and allow for Shadowcraft Mage in the end.

You don't need to relevel at all, there's an NPC that can swap your spells.

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Grendunor
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Grendunor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:02 am

Endelyon wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:48 am
We don't design the server by popular demand or a show of hands

Oh believe me that much and so much more is Evident
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Grendunor
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by Grendunor » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:03 am

Chambo Intent to Nerf and it being a nerf do not equal the same thing it's a nerf. the lead of QC is telling you it's a nerf scroll up.
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chambordini
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by chambordini » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:12 am

My point is, I can tweak it up if it's too harsh, but it goes from being a "versatility" buffing spell to being a DC spell, so it's not going to appeal to the same sorts of character builds as before, obviously.

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mrm3ntalist
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Re: Shadow conjuration - Needless nerf

Unread post by mrm3ntalist » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:45 am

chambordini wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:49 am
It should work mostly like https://dndtools.net/spells/players-han ... ion--2699/
You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces.
Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.
Shadow conjurations are actually one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength.
Any creature that interacts with the conjured object, force, or creature can make a Will save to recognize its true nature.
Spells that deal damage, such as Melf's acid arrow, have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save.
Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack.
If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur.
Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration's level (5th) rather than the spell's normal level.
In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not.
Shadow objects or substances, such as obscuring mist, have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them.
Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.
A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it's recognized as shadowy).
It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses.
The 20 percent could be tuned to something like 40 percent, but it's supposed to be weak against targets that disbelieve and have full effects against targets that fail the DCs, mage armor can be readded, I just couldn't find a proper way to give it a disbelief mechanic.

I don't see any reason it should have invisibility or darkness, it's called shadow conjuration.

Anyway it's not intended as a nerf, it's intended to become more like their pnp mechanics, give the illusion spells some depth and allow for Shadowcraft Mage in the end.

You don't need to relevel at all, there's an NPC that can swap your spells.
The spell description indicates that conjuration spells can be mimiced. There was no reason to remove the spell
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