Phantom Assassin - Crossbow Sniper viable?

[blacksoft]

I was thinking about going (halfling) Warlock 8 / fighter 6 / assassin 9 / Order of the Bow Initiate 7 (ranged precision works with xbow, right? If not, would go elemental archer instead) until I saw that AC is a real problem with the build and other than HIPS, it had no get out of jail card - figured Warlock's walk unseen would take too long to cast in fight or can I use this like Phantom's ghost step?

So I thought, why not go Phantom 16 (for crippling strike -> epic precision) / Assassin 8 / 6 xyz : classes to play with such as fighter, Arcane archer, or elemental archer (used to increase the BAB).

But then I noticed that could only get Phantom's BAB to 38 at max, while the Warlock build had 45. Not sure if I could get the few attacks on xbow to actually hit when manyshotting with the Phantom build.

(I am aware of switching out warlock for rogue 10 / assassin 8 / fighter 8 / elemental archer 4 to gain epic precision - just thought that Warlock would add more to build with on demand invis. and haste with free blind feat and entropic warding..etc)

Thoughts? Observations?

[The Whistler]

anything lower than 45 buffed AB is too low for manyshot to work reliably in high epics

[Ewe]

Here's the standard 45ab phantom manyshot build with warlock haste:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?295563

Build is courtesy of Born2BeWild.

(See all the calculations in the description of build.)

Expanded Ki Pool is actually Epic Precision. The level ordering is unfortunately very specific and must be followed or else the build breaks.

If we use this build as a benchmark, I'd say your proposed build could use some work.

Also note - this build uses shield/sling and not crossbow. Due to how crossbow attacks per round are capped off they scale poorly into epic levels and I would strongly recommend against it past level 20.

Even Kaedrin himself says never to use crossbows. Source: http://nwn2customcontent.wikidot.com/fo ... -and-sneak

That said, the sniper feats are very good from 1-10, and up to 20. It is just sub-optimal to other ranged options in end-game epic levels.

Also note: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... w_Initiate states:

(Notice: Some abilities only work with regular bows, not crossbows)

So, I would be surprised if those feats worked with a crossbow.

[blacksoft]

That said, the sniper feats are very good from 1-10, and up to 20. It is just sub-optimal to other ranged options in end-game epic levels.

Also note: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... w_Initiate states:

(Notice: Some abilities only work with regular bows, not crossbows)

So, I would be surprised if those feats worked with a crossbow.

Even with Master Sniper? Also, I figured it was not too common for people to actually hit on their fifth and sixth attacks unless they had 50+ BAB. I am assuming your 45 BAB just means to actually hit on first and second flurries.

I saw that notice, but went with "and some abilities will work with Xbows.."just was not sure which ones.

[Ewe]

Yea even with master it falls off. Improved Rapid Shot with a bow/sling or Greater Flurry with Shurikens just wins out with ManyShot and Death Attack dice. The issue is getting all 3 of your manyshot attacks into the first flurry. You want all of 3 of the manyshots to trigger DA in opening flurry when dropping from hips.

[chad878262]

The issue is damage. As an Assassin you really should be using a short bow or longbow. Your death attacks are based on flurries and with Improved Rapid Shot your flurry would be: 3/2/2 (while hasted) and 2/2/2 (not hasted)

With Manyshot those 3 attacks become 6 death attacks. So even with only 5d6 death attack dice from Phantom, you are getting 30d6 damage in the first flurry. A crossbow will never have more than 4 attacks and thus never more than 2 in the first flurry, so even with manyshot you would only have 20d6 death attack damage.

NOT saying you CAN'T go Crossbow Sniper at all, they can be quite effective. However, the reason assassin use a bow is the same as the reason melee sneak attack characters all have PTWF and 10 APR... It's the magic number to get a 4th sneak attack, though of course there are ways to get 5 and even 6 melee sneak attacks in the first flurry, but that is another discussion... Simply put, you are trying for thresholds that add another attack to the first flurry (7 APR, 10 APR, 13 APR etc.) because that is the ones that apply sneak attack damage when you attack out of HiPS.

[blacksoft]

Good info. I was considering xbow b/c of Dex to damage, had not considered flurry effect. It's just easy enough to convert any of the above builds to arrow use (or sling), so no worries.

Thanks for your input.

[chad878262]

Crossbow Sniper can still be a very good build even at max level, but they're tough. R21/A9 can make for a solid X-bow sniper and a few others.

[chad878262]

*shrug* folks are allowed to have different opinions, what I would say is this. If you are building a Xbow sniper it is a great idea to include Assassin 9 in the build, so long as other decisions make up for the loss of attack bonus. You really want ~42 AB minimum even if striking from HiPS to effectively use manyshot. However, you are not focusing on sneak damage, your grabbing the death attack damage because of the manyshot bug that applies the damage on all arrows in the first flurry (4 instead of 2 when under the effects of haste). If you are building a heavy sneak attack based build, such as a Phantom/Assassin than Xbow is a poor choice, because more of your damage comes from sneak dice rather than stacking DEX. This means you want more sneak attacks.

So if I wasn't clear before, sorry about that. Sure, Assassin works on Xbow build. Phantom Assassin is not a good Xbow build.

[blacksoft]

Ya, that is much clearer, thanks for that.

I was messing around on testing module and as a bow warlock 8 / 8 assassin / 5 order of bow inituate ( gains epic weapon focus progression) / arcane Archer 9 and going back and forth to HIPS and walk unseen is great fun. It just wasn't clear to me whether the testing grounds 1-30 enemies reflected bgtscc stats. I used basic +4 equipment for everything and the drow weapon master was eating me alive. But when I switched to +12 enhancement on my bow, all of a sudden they didn't stand a chance.

I will try xbow on same build and see comparison performance.

[chad878262]

Test module is way op....IIRC if your build can solo the modules cr 24 or 25 enemies then you can handle the vast majority of server content.

[blacksoft]

....IIRC if your build can solo the modules cr 24 or 25 enemies then you can handle the vast majority of server content.

With +4 stats at cr 24 or 25 enemies?

[chad878262]

....IIRC if your build can solo the modules cr 24 or 25 enemies then you can handle the vast majority of server content.

With +4 stats at cr 24 or 25 enemies?

correct. It would be a mistake to utilize items that aren't available on the server.