Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hey there!
Any particular reason why zen archery does not stack with crossbow sniper? It might be a question of balance, but for the moment anyone who uses this feat is heavily inclined towards bows. I'd like to see the feat opened up to crossbows too, if possible.

Edit: The current suggestion is to have crossbow sniper and crossbow sniper master offer a factor of 0,5 and 1 respectively to your wisdom modifier for damage when wielding a crossbow and using the zen archery feat. This replaces the bonus damage from dexterity, if the damage is higher when using wisdom. Comparatively, crossbow sniper and crossbow sniper master offers a factor of 1 and 1,5 respectively when used in conjunction with dexterity.

I like this idea.

Be great for a cleric to have, can actually perform in pve as a support heal class, use a crossbow, templar style, and set up healing tents etc and take care of the wounded.

Is the suggestion to make XBow Sniper/Mastery grant the user WIS/WIS*1.5 to damage if the user has Zen Archery?

I mean, I guess it wouldn't be horribly broken. You still need to invest 17 into DEX, the majority into WIS (to come out with Damage/AB), as well as picking up 7 feats to use this effectively (Xbow Sniper, Xbow Sniper Mastery, Zen Archer, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot). 8 feats if you don't want the AB malnus from Rapid Shot.

You wouldn't be able to make many really useful builds with it, it would function mostly as a gimmick that doesn't really hold up compared to comparable builds. Like most other hybrid builds.

If a developer decided to take this up, I wouldn't have any complaints.

Come on - sniper damage with all the clerical damage buffs on top and also a full casters power - that's laughable
I hate this idea.

Kiran wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:56 pm Be great for a cleric to have, can actually perform in pve as a support heal class, use a crossbow, templar style, and set up healing tents etc and take care of the wounded.

Yeah, this was my thought exactly. It makes new playstyles for clerics more available, even if it is still subpar to going the melee route. Offering players some extra choice in their character building seems a decent idea, at least to me.

metaquad4 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:25 pm Is the suggestion to make XBow Sniper/Mastery grant the user WIS/WIS*1.5 to damage if the user has Zen Archery?

Yes.

Theodore01 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:17 pm Come on - sniper damage with all the clerical damage buffs on top and also a full casters power - that's laughable

If you compare it to using the longbow, you are getting some extra spicy shots at a cost of 7 feats instead of 4. Even with this change, it is hard to say which is superior for a cleric despite the clear difference in investment.

Kaeldre wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:52 pm

Theodore01 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:17 pm Come on - sniper damage with all the clerical damage buffs on top and also a full casters power - that's laughable

If you compare it to using the longbow, you are getting some extra spicy shots at a cost of 7 feats instead of 4. Even with this change, it is hard to say which is superior for a cleric despite the clear difference in investment.

If you compare it to a non-casting/non sneaking sniper build - don't you see the imbalance ?
If one wants a dedicated caster - it shouldn't be a dedicated sniper also.

Theodore01 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:17 pm Come on - sniper damage with all the clerical damage buffs on top and also a full casters power - that's laughable
I hate this idea.

I'd suggest before jumping to a knee-jerk reaction, you plot out a build that could empirically demonstrate this point. I thought similar until I actually did just that, and ended up coming with either flawed or sub-par builds.

Unless you already made a theoretical build, in which case, I'd -love- to see the breakdown of a build that you consider to be both an awesome sniper and awesome DC caster. Hybrid builds don't generally work out in nwn2, and I can almost promise that it won't actually be as good as a dedicated sniper or dedicated DC caster.

metaquad4 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:25 pm I mean, I guess it wouldn't be horribly broken. You still need to invest 17 into DEX, the majority into WIS (to come out with Damage/AB), as well as picking up 7 feats to use this effectively (Xbow Sniper, Xbow Sniper Mastery, Zen Archer, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot). 8 feats if you don't want the AB malnus from Rapid Shot.

The best build I came out with was 13 Cleric/3 Monk/4 Fighter/10 Hierophant. Or at-least I initially thought, until I remembered that the 3/20 rule exists. Can't do that one.

You'd have to either take fighter to have some feats (7 feats is the limit for pre-epic on none-human/halfling), take monk to get some AC (could go mithril fullplate, but now you lose out on STR to carry it or CON for HP), or somesuch. That is the primary reason it won't be as good. You need to dedicate levels/feats/stats to two activities, rather than one.

Again, show me a build that does this and I'll show you two that trump it in the fields of sniping and DC casting.

You could just do a gish-summoner build, and come out with better damage. The role of caster cleric is generally better filled by other classes, but even for that you can end up doing better with a fire domain or moon domain build.

chambordini wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:25 pm I like zen archery where it's at, but if suddenly we get more wisdom based crossbowers than dexterity based ones I think that'd be very sad.

From a mechanical point of view I think your fears can be laid to rest, considering metaquad4's earlier insights. This is a case of simply giving people the option to play a divine crossbowman, not making it a staple of some sort. Dexterity crossbowmen will still rule the stage, of that I am certain. But expanding the freedom of choice in creating characters is never wrong. After all, thats an essential aspect of what makes nwn so unique.

ranger6(no need to have 17 dex,14 is enough and can spam 28-32 wisdom) get favored enemy/rapid shot/manyshot/toughness/track free

Cleric18/hierophant6 + practiced spellcaster + 2 divine spellpower (CL30, AB 50-60 with divine power, damage very high with 28-32 wisdom + owl insight 44 wisdom on top of all clerical buffs. implosion with high wisdom.

tbh, it looks more sick than druid/monk abuse.

Yeah, that was my thought too — Insane DCs AND huge crossbow damage at the same time, so far looks OP.

izzul wrote: ↑Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:47 pm ranger6(no need to have 17 dex,14 is enough and can spam 28-32 wisdom) get favored enemy/rapid shot/manyshot/toughness/track free

Cleric18/hierophant6 + practiced spellcaster + 2 divine spellpower (CL30, AB 50-60 with divine power, damage very high with 28-32 wisdom + owl insight 44 wisdom on top of all clerical buffs. implosion with high wisdom.

I made the build theoretically. Here's some stats:
AB:
- Buffed: 46/46/41 (Manyshot)
- Levelling: 39/39/34 (Manyshot)
AC:
- Buffed: 40
- Levelling: 36
- The ranger combat style feat forces you into light armor.
- You can't use a shield with a crossbow.
Damage
- Buffed: 43 (86 with manyshot)
- Levelling: 35,5 (71 with manyshot)
DC:
- Implosion: 40 DC
- Other circle 9 spells: 34 DC
- Clerics dont have access to owls insight.
- Evocation focuses were taken with implosion to max DC.
- Any other focus will yield 37 DC.
- Implosion is also blocked by deathward (Wandable).
- No epic spells.

*Buffed: Max stats you can get in a single scenario (very short lasting)
*Levelling: Normal stats you will have while levelling (long lasting or spammed)

Verdict: The build is pretty strong over short spans of time. It struggles in any prolonged scenario. It is a glass cannon build, having litte in terms of ac or health, sacrificing these for damage and dc. Both of which it can deliver in, but not as well has its specialized counterparts.

These values are also a little illegal. The build can't afford all the feats and goodies it wants. To get these values I've given the build one extra feat that it shouldn't be able to afford. You'll have to make a decision between improved rapid reload or practised spellcaster. Either decreasing your AB or DC by 2.

now compare that with the normal Xbow sniper build.

-they only have damage
-no high fort/will saves
-no regen
-no stonebody
-no energy immunity
-no death ward
-no bull, bear,
-no implosion
-no high wisdom to spot/listen
-no righteous might
-no divine favor
-no divine power
-no access to druid casting owl insight to them to get to 44 wisdom

i dont wish to further this discussion because comparing classes in nwn2 is not what we should do since some are always stronger like tier 1 bard/wizard/FV/barbarian.

i'll leave that to the experts to decide, but if this is allowed, i do wish monk/druid is allowed too. peace out and i apologize for anything

izzul wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:38 am now compare that with the normal Xbow sniper build.

-they only have damage
-no high fort/will saves
-no regen
-no stonebody
-no energy immunity
-no death ward
-no bull, bear,
-no implosion
-no high wisdom to spot/listen
-no righteous might
-no divine favor
-no divine power
-no access to druid casting owl insight to them to get to 44 wisdom

i dont wish to further this discussion because comparing classes in nwn2 is not what we should do since some are always stronger like tier 1 bard/wizard/FV/barbarian.

i'll leave that to the experts to decide, but if this is allowed, i do wish monk/druid is allowed too. peace out and i apologize for anything

http://nwn2db.com/build/?228728

You can always unload this badboi. Obviously, if you are going the martial route, bows are better than crossbows. However, if you wanted to judge just based on crossbow builds:

Also, HiPs (being the best defence in the game) negates most of your worries, offering you complete immunity to spells/effects that require a target. Death ward is easily taken care of with a wand. You can also kite mobs forever using it.

Bears/bulls/other buffs are there to compensate for the lack of AB inherent with caster classes. I mean, this build is toting 57 (58 with cat's grace on) AB 24/7. And the caster will be needing those defences from buffs (which it can't keep up 24/7) because it lacks HiPs. Which is a superior defence to those buffs, anyway. Basically, you can't tally those buffs as separate benefits. Those buffs are there to attempt to bring your caster build up to par with the martial build, and not for any other reason. Show numbers here, please, rather than just mindlessly listing these off as benefits without understanding why they are benefits.

The caster also won't have sneak attack dice, and won't be able to do as much damage as the martial build because of that.

Owl's insight also doesn't belong in the above list, you are adding druid buffs to cleric benefits. Clerics don't get that spell. That list is flawed, as it is presented.

Spot/Listen still requires a gear investment as well, even with high wisdom, to be able to spot HiPsters in full gear. And spot/listen is pretty much useless in PvE beyond 25~. So that becomes a PvP-based argument, and a flawed one at that.

D22/Ass8 sounds pretty lethal. HIPS at 21, but can just Wildshape druid (tree) until then anyway.

HIPs.
All druid buffs(Stat buffs, Skills (h/ms/s/l, AC, DR, DW, SR, EImm etc), immunities etc. Assuming the damage spells (flame/frost weapon and storm avatar) are disabled on ranged, it's not as OP as it could be.
But the AB... oh the AB... will be aweful. Double Medium BAB classes

Even then... Wildshape druid still pwns Ranged druid. On dmg output.

/ofbadidea.

What about Paladin Divinate then. Don't they get a spell that gives them the equivalent fighter BAB level?
They've got a pretty sweet spell line... but their weapon spells don't work on ranged.
/anothernotsogreatidea

Owl's Insight + Shapechange (Arboreal Elf) + Sniper feats dmg.

You'd think xbow feats wouldn't apply, but I've heard players using those bad arse Darts with Arboreal Elf plus other fears to achieve sick damage.