Build me a rogue

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zan5bar
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Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 1:18 pm
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Build me a rogue

Unread post by zan5bar »

I am horrible at character building, and with all the new classes and feats added I am just a bit lost here (and don't have the time or motivation to go through them all). So once again I am asking the help of my old and new co-players. The purpose is to build 'a city-rogue' that would use the newly added thief acrobat class and start at level 1. The requirements would be:

- Human or tiefling
- Thief acrobat class
- Master of disguise class (or second impression feat with decent bluff skill) [purpose is to have a decent ability to disguise oneself]
- Preferably no assassin levels this time.
- No negative ability modifiers if possible.
- A good combination of roleplay and efficiency (emphasis on roleplay).
- Two weapon fighting style (edited)

Hm... I am probably missing something, but if you can give any advice with these previously mentioned points kept in mind then I'd be most grateful. :)
Last edited by zan5bar on Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hendrak
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by Hendrak »

Two Handed fighting or Two Weapon fighting?

You want SneakAttack dices and/or Hide in Plain sight?

Any alignment restrictions?

Tell us more: He is a rouge guy? So sneaky, pickpocketing or what do you mean?
zan5bar
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by zan5bar »

Yeah, that was supposed to be two weapon fighting. The old-school rogue is more what I had in mind with the character. Pick-pocketing definitely! And I guess HIPS is more or less mandatory on this server for rogue survival? Alignment good, neutral, or lawful evil.
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Theodore01
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by Theodore01 »

zan5bar wrote: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:55 pmAnd I guess HIPS is more or less mandatory on this server for rogue survival?
Rogue gets hide in the shadows at lv7. If you play careful, then it's doable without HIPS. Phantom could be another option.
Hendrak
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by Hendrak »

Is magic excluded?

Like Bard, ArcaneTrickster, DaggerspellMage?
zan5bar
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by zan5bar »

The less magic the better. I wouldn't completely rule out some bard levels though.
Tacticus001
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by Tacticus001 »

Me personally i prefer to play as a thief in most D&D games I've done. Maybe consider multiclassing into a fighter. If you want to focus on a mostly rogue type I'd recommend 3 levels of fighter before level 20 (3b20) and also take the 4th level fighter in your epic levels for the bonus feat to get an epic feat. The reason I am saying take some fighter levels is because the rogue only gets a medium BAB (base attack bonus) which in my opinion sucks, by taking a few fighter levels levels you can get a +4 to your BAB. It is so annoying to miss your sneak attacks when your big fighter is depending on you to take the target down fast.
Also you mentioned you want a dual wielder, using those bonus feats for it will give you some breathing room when spending feats
and of course 30 points in tumble for +3 dodge bonus. The 30 points has to be from leveling your skill, any other modifers to tumble wont increase your AC.
I'm assuming you know most of this but thought it worth mentioning.
chad878262
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by chad878262 »

to answer the original post if the OP is still interested, the tough part is both TA and Master of Disguises want a full 5 levels and TA is a bit feat intensive. For a Human or Tiefling you have 8 (or 7) pre-epic feats. Human will make pre-epics easier/faster to get your feat requirements while also the standard needed feats for a rogue while Tiefling will make epics less an issue with regard to qualifying for PTWF and Epic Dodge. So let's look at what is needed for a Rogue build that includes both TA and MoD:

TA needs Evasion (rogue 2), Dash (required feat), and SF: Tumble or Escape Artist (Escape Artist is the better mechanical choice). You also need Tumble and Escape Artist, 10 ranks. Thus the earliest level you can take Thief Acrobat is level 8.
MoD is much easier only requiring bluff, disguise and sense motive of 5 ranks and BaB of +5.

In addition to the above, for your build in pre-epics you must take Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, and Greater TWF. Thus 6 feats are spoken for, your Tiefling has 1 left and your human has 2. In addition, depending on rogue levels and what other PRC (if any) you pick up you may have other available feats. Assuming you have at least 13 Rogue levels R10 will take crippling strike and rogue 13 will take Defensive Roll (you get Improved Evasion free from TA).

So, you don't want Assassin, you have to decide if you want HiPS. If you do want HiPS you are stuck with Shadow Dancer for you 4th class and you need Dodge and Mobility feats. This would be something like R17/SD3/TA5/MoD5 and the biggest issue you will have is a severe lack of damage. You will only have 11d6 sneak dice (ouch) since all SD and TA have zero sneak progression and MoD only gets 2/5 instead of 3/5. With regard to BAB it's ok (thanks to TA getting high BAB progression) so you are 22 which is standard for a Rogue, though in general with 22 BAB you would want 14d6 or more sneak dice so you're a bit behind as stated. If you go with this build you'll have to go Human (remember your level 18 feat cannot be used for PRC qualification due to 3b20) and won't get GTWF until level 18 or if you go Tiefling you will have to also use your R10 feat for qualification and R13 and 16 for Crippling Strike/Defensive Roll (one of which could otherwise by an epic feat). Finally, to get Epic Dodge you need to take R16 on or before level 29 which is fine since then level 30 would be R17.

For a non-HiPS build you have to understand how Hide in the Shadows (rogue custom ability) and determine what is acceptable to you. Recommend you read up on it here. It does take some practice, but I actually really like the mechanic as it requires you to think about positioning etc. If you do go this route, note that Rogue 16-20 has a 1s delay to hide in the shadows (becomes instant at 21). Since you have 10 levels spoken for you only need 16 levels of Rogue to get your best use out of HitS giving you 4 levels to dedicate to another PRC. Here are a few options:

R17/NWN3/TA5/MoD5 - Obvious choice. Whenever possible Bodyguard should be looked at in any rogue build. Here you end up with 13d6 sneak dice and BAB 23 as well as 10% movement speed boost (which in conjunction with Dash helps you gain distance to better use HitS or corners so you can stealth. Saves feats of ShadowDancer in addition to more sneak dice, +1 BAB and movements speed, but obviously one can't ever do enough to validate the loss of HiPS.

R16/GT4/TA5/MoD5- Gains a couple of feats, though I recommend you build in NWN2db or JEGS before playing it as Guild Thief feat selection is exceedingly limited, but you could grab Combat Expertise/Feint as another way to land sneak attacks (though on the surface this is a dubious choice at best.)

Alternate style....(not what you requested)

R16/BG4/TA5/MoD5 - Blackguard synergizes well with Master of Disguises. This build would go for Shield Slam rather than PTWF and thus would focus on STR/CHA going for an EDM with Improved Knockdown, Springboard, Shield Slam and Blinding Strike. More about disables without reliance on HiPS. Will wear Mithril Chainmail (14 DEX with +4 DEX bracers) and use a medium shield and longsword or scimitar (or whatever martial/medium weapon you want). Basically instead of 25 DEX you are aiming for 21 STR/CHA so Human will work better than Tiefling, especially due to heavy feat pre-requisites.

Again, not sure the original poster is still interested in this concept or has already started playing it with a different split, but figured since it was necro'd I'd provide what advice I'm able.
Tacticus001 wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:38 pm Me personally i prefer to play as a thief in most D&D games I've done. Maybe consider multiclassing into a fighter. If you want to focus on a mostly rogue type I'd recommend 3 levels of fighter before level 20 (3b20) and also take the 4th level fighter in your epic levels for the bonus feat to get an epic feat. The reason I am saying take some fighter levels is because the rogue only gets a medium BAB (base attack bonus) which in my opinion sucks, by taking a few fighter levels levels you can get a +4 to your BAB. It is so annoying to miss your sneak attacks when your big fighter is depending on you to take the target down fast.
No offense, but this isn't a great idea unless you are going for a very specific build. I have played a Sneak attack based PC as my main for the majority of my 4 1/2 years on the server as well as in various editions of PnP over the years and rogue BAB is just FINE as long as you do what you are SUPPOSED to do, which is to attack enemies which you can deny their DEX/Dodge AC and apply sneak damage. 4 levels in a high BAB class (or 3 levels) will gain you exactly 1 BAB while losing you 2d6 sneak dice. If you want to do this it is far better to grab 3 levels of Bodyguard (Neverwinter Nine) which gains the same +1 BAB while still giving full sneak attack progression (2d6 for 3 levels). If for some reason you notice your rogue missing sneak attacks out of stealth/when opponent is flanked try potions of (greater) heroism, bless or aid. far better option than losing damage on your sneak attacks.

If you are going for a "Fighter/Thief" hybrid then it's best to go R16/F14 (shield slam), R11/GFK10/A9 (PTWF or Shield Slam) or some other combo that fits in more of the high BAB classes. R10/BG10/GFK10 is another possibility or you could do similar with wilderness stalker.

While Rogue builds are feat starved, they have enough to get what they need without Fighter, and a key point is saving Fighter for Epics isn't all that great most of the time, there are only two epic feats that you can take there, though in this case you could use it for Epic Prowess which is needed for expose weakness. Still, there are better options in terms of spending your levels on.
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Snarfy
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by Snarfy »

chad878262 wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:22 am R17/NWN3/TA5/MoD5

R16/GT4/TA5/MoD5

R16/BG4/TA5/MoD5
What about Rogue 13/Whirling Dervish 7/Thief acrobat 5/MoD 5 as an option? It gets dash 1st level of WD, a bit of sneak dice, and some skill feats to make up for the feat intensiveness of the rest of the other classes.
There are no level 30's, only level 20's with benefits...
chad878262
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Re: Build me a rogue

Unread post by chad878262 »

Snarfy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:10 am What about Rogue 13/Whirling Dervish 7/Thief acrobat 5/MoD 5 as an option? It gets dash 1st level of WD, a bit of sneak dice, and some skill feats to make up for the feat intensiveness of the rest of the other classes.
Certainly an option old friend, but not without a couple drawbacks to consider.

1. While it is not as feat intensive as Shadow Dancer thanks to WD granting Dash and Skill Focus feats to cancel out the dodge/mobility requirement, it is also taking away from what you gain from more rogue levels, such as more sneak dice and the fact that Hide in the Shadows timer is reduced to 1s at level 16. That 1/2 second might not seem like much, but it makes a difference.

2. End of the day, as I stated in the Shadow Dancer build, the sneak dice just aren't really enough. Without HiPS I would personally want to reach 16d6 sneak dice as you really want any mob that can cast spells to go down in your first flurry out of stealth. Melee's aren't such a problem as you can get some distance on them and HitS. However, casters that live through your initial attack are most likely going to hit you with something nasty which will often ruin your good time.

3. Lacks the 10% bonus speed from NWN(bodyguard). Without HiPS that extra speed is a major boon. Dash just isn't enough.

Whirling Dervish in itself is one of those classes I really want to like, but it just misses in terms of how much it gives compared to what you give up. The cost/benefit scale doesn't balance. I have always felt it should get something like GFK's Ghost Step as it levels which would give it an "OH @#%$$#" button without having to go a full 10. Either granting minor teleportation 1/day at 4, 1/day at 7 and 1/day at 10 for 3 total or maybe adding invis 1/day at 3, 6 and 9. As it stands you give up 2d6 sneak dice, 2 feats you would never take otherwise (unless also going shadow dancer), and in this case a Rogue bonus Feat (at Rogue 16) and you don't even gain defensive roll. IMHO it's just too much to give out without gaining significant benefits back. It's a fine RP selection, especially with all those juicy skill focus feats, but I have played builds with WD PRC and you often end up falling short of being fun to play mechanically in PvE.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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