Tempest build from 2012?

[Ellis]

Hello all,

I am glad to have discovered such a vibrant and interesting server; however, being new presents me with some degree of unfamiliarity regarding character building from a mechanical standpoint.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?9799

I would like to create a character with a similar build to the tempest above but I am open to any suggestions regarding the design and welcome any insight into the various changes that would be required to make this viable. I have typically played casters in D&D 3.5 so I am not well-versed in the nuances of creating a TWF mêlée character.

[Bobthehero]

BG has a 3b20 rule where you must have taken 3 levels of all of your classes before level 20, thus the most obvious change you'll have to do is to take the 3rd level of Champion of the Wild before level 20. Also, you can't be a Yuan-Ti, so that's another thing you'll have to keep in mind.

[Ellis]

BG has a 3b20 rule where you must have taken 3 levels of all of your classes before level 20, thus the most obvious change you'll have to do is to take the 3rd level of Champion of the Wild before level 20. Also, you can't be a Yuan-Ti, so that's another thing you'll have to keep in mind.

Sounds good, what would be a good alternative ability score distribution & race combination?

[Bobthehero]

Can't help you much there, I don't know much twf builds either, just getting the big stuff out of the way so those who know more can concentrate on the build proper

[Ellis]

Is "Elegant Strike" or similar even a feat option here?

Dex based TWF seems a bit lacklustre if there's no mechanism to apply DEX mod to damage.

[Theodore01]

We don't have champion of the wilds here either.

Take a look here to get some ideas. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=69825

[Svabodnik]

It's been a while since I built anything, but as far as I know Champion of the Wild/Elegant Strike aren't in, and thus there isn't really a means to add DEX to damage. However, Swashbuckler Insightful Strike (gained at level 5 on the server) and Combat Insight do stack in order to add double INT modifier to damage rolls rather than STR, but require build investment.

In terms of 2WF, I personally prefer Tempest for a Ranger 6/Tempest 5 split for STR two-weapon builds (gives you access to Greater 2WF with only 13 DEX, letting you pump STR for attack bonus and damage). Still, Tempest Defense's +2 AC/AB are pretty nice for 2WF regardless.

On that note, going for two rapiers over two kukri only gives an average of 1 extra damage per hand at the cost of -2 AB, which will take Oversized 2WF to overcome (and thus requires 13 STR). It's still definately not off the table if you like the "case of rapiers" as an aesthetic choice, or want to use Piercing rather than Slashing as a damage source.

Hidden: show

I threw together a very rough two-rapier build using Swash/Fighter/Tempest/WM, trying to keep to the style of the build you posted. It's got paper-thin defenses, no Evasion (and thus no Expose), no Will, is missing Blind-Fight, and is overall a very late bloomer in terms of effectiveness (it needs a fairly high level for the build to come together and perform well in comparison to others). On the other hand, it has double INT to damage that I mentioned (which with the +4 INT headband from store will give a +14 modifier to damage by the end) and Perfect 2WF.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?306395

EDIT: Just realized I completely forgot about Multiclass penalty. Updated post and build to reflect.

[Theodore01]

or go duelist instead of WM, gives a lot more defense. (+7 INT and +5 deflection +6 ICE )
http://nwn2db.com/build/?306396

[Deathgrowl]

Describe the vision you have of your character and it may be easier for us to help you make a viable build for it.

There are many approaches to two weapon fighting. Fighter14/rogue4/tempest5/wm7 is one, for instance, getting 17 dex and then rest strength. This gets you to greater two weapon fighting.

If you want perfect two weapon fighting, a solution is going ranger21 or more, again focusing on strength.

It's difficult to make a perfect two weapon fighter on this server relying on dexterity and weapon finesse without going for sneak attack damage. There are just no other viable damage sources for someone trying to reach 25 dexterity. But rogue16/assassin9/invisible blade5 is a popular choice. There are other rogue/assassin or rogue/shadowdancer variants as well. Mixing monk into there for flurry of blows with Kamas is also a popular idea.

So again it's easy to come up with two weapon fighters in various ways, but which one fits your vision of the character you want to play?

[Ellis]

Thank you all for the excellent and informative responses; after processing the changes outlined I am now in a much better position to mechanically approach a TWF.

Any other more general changes re: melee I should be aware of?

Describe the vision you have of your character and it may be easier for us to help you make a viable build for it.

There are many approaches to two weapon fighting. Fighter14/rogue4/tempest5/wm7 is one, for instance, getting 17 dex and then rest strength. This gets you to greater two weapon fighting.

If you want perfect two weapon fighting, a solution is going ranger21 or more, again focusing on strength.

It's difficult to make a perfect two weapon fighter on this server relying on dexterity and weapon finesse without going for sneak attack damage. There are just no other viable damage sources for someone trying to reach 25 dexterity. But rogue16/assassin9/invisible blade5 is a popular choice. There are other rogue/assassin or rogue/shadowdancer variants as well. Mixing monk into there for flurry of blows with Kamas is also a popular idea.

So again it's easy to come up with two weapon fighters in various ways, but which one fits your vision of the character you want to play?

This is the sort of dilemma I was facing -- the concept of my intended character eschews any sort of rogue (or rogue-lite) behaviour thus making this build possibly non-viable; however, I am a tad flexible which is why I like to survey all potential combinations before deciding on a route as I always get terrible build remorse if I haven't done my research and end up re-rolling a dozen times... hence this thread.

The reason I avoided outlining a character from the onset is because I like to explore all the options provided and this thread has been fruitful in opening my eyes to a few avenues I had not considered!

Thank you, again, though, I will consider ranger 21 vs. the build Svabodnik posted and maybe see if I can lean toward making a separate rogue (for the rogue16/assassin9/etc. combo); what are pros/cons between them?

[Deathgrowl]

Ranger comes with divine RP. Rangers are servants of the gods, and therefore must follow the teachings of their gods. So that is at least something to keep in mind. Fortunately, Forgotten Realms allows rangers of any god, so you can pick one that fits your character's interests and morals relatively easily.

The pure ranger relies largely on Bane of Enemies for its damage. Focusing on strength for AB and damage helps alleviate this, of course, and since ranger gets all the two weapon fighting feats for free (if that combat path is chosen), you don't need more than like 14 dexterity to get by. That leaves a lot of room for strength. Ranger also has a decent toolkit in its spells.

Another suggestion, and one I really enjoyed playing quite a bit myself, is ranger22/assassin8. Here you also have the bane of enemies, strength focus and perfect two weapon fighting from ranger, but you get a proper hide in plain sight (in contrast to the outdoors-only hide in plain sight for ranger), and you get 4d6 death attack to back up your damage. Your AB will be slightly lower, but the compensation here is great.

The rogue/assassin style builds are dex based. They do great damage out of stealth with sneak attack. But besides hide in plain sight and epic dodge (for some of these builds at least), they are glass cannons. Their saves, HP and AC tends to be relatively low. Because of higher dex, rogues also tend to be stealthier than rangers - at least unbuffed.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

For me, it makes little mechancial sense for dual-wielder to go below Perfect Two Weapon Fighting. With only Greater, you get +3 attacks on your off-hand, at -2 AB penalty. It is more viable to go sword/shield or 2h which allows you to use shield (and shield bashing) or have 1.5x STR bonus (furthered with PA/IPA), respectively.

From there, it's a decision whether or not to go STR or DEX. STR route would exclusively lead towards 21 Ranger base (as it gets PTWF for free) and numerous variations of thereof.

DEX route would be classic rogue/HiPS character, or a more martial character with Fighter 12 base + 10 Dervish levels. Maybe Fighter 12/Dervish 10/Swashbuckler 5 or Tempest 5/Shadowdancer 3.

[Svabodnik]

Depending on where your AB is at. Every iterative attack is -5 AB, or -25% chance to hit if the target AC is within a 2-19 roll, outside the 10% chance you get a roll of 1 or 20. While making a build, there is quite a bit of trade-off between selections that maximize your AB and your damage per hit (i.e. Power Attack, going for and EDM build that sacrifices precious STR points into CHA, etc.). For a certain target AC, you can be comfortable landing your first three hits for good damage (with close to a 50% difference in chance when comparing the probability of successful hits of the first and third attack), but may not be too hopeful for the last three hits in your six rolls of a full round attack. In such a case, for a 2WF build, you may prioritize damage per hit, for the first three hits of your main and off-hand with G2WF, rather than sacrifice other aspects of your build to acquire P2WF and still have a high likelihood of missing on the last three off-hand attacks anyways.

EDIT: Put simpler, your fourth attack is at a -15 penalty. That's a big number, as far as hitting an AC goes. For a certain target, it's possible to hit for "really big damages" during the first three attacks before you get such a massive penalty. but can't hit often past that. At that point, the work going into doing the "really big damages" may outweigh the chances to merely scratching it with three more rolls of the off-hand attack.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Depending on where your AB is at. Every iterative attack is -5 AB, or -25% chance to hit if the target AC is within a 2-19 roll, outside the 10% chance you get a roll of 1 or 20. While making a build, there is quite a bit of trade-off between selections that maximize your AB and your damage per hit (i.e. Power Attack, going for and EDM build that sacrifices precious STR points into CHA, etc.). For a certain target AC, you can be comfortable landing your first three hits for good damage (with close to a 50% difference in chance when comparing the probability of successful hits of the first and third attack), but may not be too hopeful for the last three hits in your six rolls of a full round attack. In such a case, for a 2WF build, you may prioritize damage per hit, for the first three hits of your main and off-hand with G2WF, rather than sacrifice other aspects of your build to acquire P2WF and still have a high likelihood of missing on the last three off-hand attacks anyways.

EDIT: Put simpler, your fourth attack is at a -15 penalty. That's a big number, as far as hitting an AC goes. For a certain target, it's possible to hit for "really big damages" during the first three attacks before you get such a massive penalty. but can't hit often past that. At that point, the work going into doing the "really big damages" may outweigh the chances to merely scratching it with three more rolls of the off-hand attack.

Yes, but like I said I'm also comparing GTWF with other fighting styles, not strictly vs PTWF.

[Svabodnik]

Comparing G2WF/P2WF to shield bashing, the former will do considerably more damage, as you've got only so many feats, and you can dedicate all of them to the damage output of both hands. The latter gives much higher defenses, and several options for CC. They're focusing on different aspects, and so I find it hard to say that one is 'less viable' than the other. They're apples and oranges.

On that note, there are sneak-focused 2WF builds, where you do really need P2WF in order to maximize the amount of attacks going out in your first flurry out of stealth, and 2WF builds that simply stand and swing at enemies in the open. They too are very different in what they are trying to achieve, as one relies on either having the target be flanked, CCed, or doing the HiPS dance, and is likely dedicating a lot of their gear towards H/MS bonuses, while the other is a more classic, constantly-attacking DPR approach.

It's only the latter that can be the most closely compared to two-hander builds, since they are more often trying to achieve the same the same thing - damage going out consistently at the cost of low defense. One has incredibly high on-hit damage, the other has lower damage, but more rolls in a round. It's a similar comparison to a G2WF build that has higher on-hit damage but fewer attacks than a P2WF build, as I mentioned above.