Swash20/Assassin10 or F12/R3/Temp5/Assassin10

[darwin.evenwood]

Hi guys. RCR is about to end and i would like a suggestion.

What build would be more efficent mechanically speaking between these two? (The fighter/rogue one is this one made by Deathgrowl http://nwn2db.com/build/?270346).

The fighter one would have maybe more damage because of two-weapon fighting and fighter feats, surely it has much more AB. STR based.

I built the swash in Jegs and it seems pretty good. It will RCR at lvl 21 so swash13/assassin8, with epic precision and HiPS.
Kukri and shield, with mithral chainmail.
Swash would be STR/INT (20/26 modified) with combat insight for double INT to damage.

I would avoid more classes into the split for xp penalty or more delayed goodies

So the main question i think would be: Will i miss Epic Precision on the first build too much or would the fighter feats and STR compensate?

Any other suggestion is welcomed anyway!

[chad878262]

there is only one build posted, but just some general feedback...

1. Are you sure DG didn't make that for a specific request? STR based Fighter/Rogue/Assassin/Tempest doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense... F12/R10/A8 DEX based with PTWF and Epic Precision is going to be a better mix if you want a TWF 'Fighter/Thief' archetype... Just use shortswords instead of a Longsword and a Shortsword. I suppose it doesn't get 12 APR, but you need 13 to get a 5th sneak attack in the first flurry anyway. In any case, DG's build will certainly work, but if going for a STR Based 'thug' Rogue You could mix rogue, assassin, ghost faced killer and blackguard for a shield slamming STR based build instead of trying to mix STR based with GTWF.

2. Why would your SB/Assassin not have PTWF? SB gets weapon finesse for free and with INT to damage you are better off dex based for AC/AB in one stat. I would also say even though SB gets epic precision you are still better stopping at SB 5 so you can get Crippling Strike which will proc far more often than weakening critical... SB5/R16/A9 for example with PTWF would get epic dodge and 13d6 sneak dice to go with double INT to damage and str drain on each sneak attack.

So the main thing I would ask is 'what are you trying to do?' because the two builds are fairly different and far from optimized. That is fine of course, but makes it difficult to comprehend what you are going for. In the end understanding what you are wanting to play makes it far easier to give advice on what tweaks might enhance your enjoyment.

[darwin.evenwood]

Hi Chad, first of all thanks for the reply.
I posted just one build cause i am experiencing some problems with nwn2db account and can't save builds no more.
So the swash build is just on my jegs
Anyway i have no very clear ideas, just want to try a two weapon fighting warrior that would be fun to play, not relying only on Sneak Attacks, and so i looked into STR based rogue builds. Then i tought about combat insight and epic precision. Then i tought about assassin INT to DC and tried to mix them together. You see? lot of ideas and no way to build properly
Another thing i tought was to get epic precision before epics, because with DR/- or immune enemies it would be very hard. And that leaded me to swash 12 before epic and to get it i can't mix too many classes.
The reason for STR/INT swash was because i only have one restriction: Human. And wasn't able to get both DEX 25 and high INT. And something that worried me was the AC in general.

Anyway as usual your builds are very nice. I will try to build in jegs the F12/R10/A8 with PTWF and Ep.Precision. I will build the SB5/R16/A9 as well. Would this one get epic precision also?

Just tought another one, more simple and no sneak: Sw12/F14/R4, would be viable? maybe DEX and INT

[chad878262]

Ok, I think I can help you... The fundamental flaw you are experiencing is trying to get sneak dice while not relying on them, this is a bad idea. Either get no/minimal sneak dice or get lots. If you get lots, then get epic precision (either from R10, P16 or SB12) and rely on that damage because you can reliably apply it. Note also with 10 or more Rogue levels and/or ~8d6 or more sneak dice blinding strike is a no brainer to take. The other thing to consider is the idea you 'must' have 25 DEX/INT... If you are only going for GTWF you only need 19 DEX so you could go 19 DEX/max INT and have a GTWF build (or even 17 DEX on a Tempest)... Now, on to some real advice on builds.

If you want a STR based TWF build that doesn't rely on sneak dice you do have a few options:
1. Ranger 30 or R21/A9 (or 22/8) can go full STR and get PTWF. For increasing damage when needed grab northlander hewing...EASY!
- As an offshoot of this could go R26/F4 of course, but +2 damage isn't anything exciting...
2. F12/T5/AK10/Rogue3 - All the fighter feats, GTWF, extra damage and will saves from AK and expose weakness... For more damage at expense of will saves replace AK with Dervish... Like with Ranger builds Northlander Hewing is a great pickup. Note that from what others have said it takes attacks away from your main hand so you end up with 3 attacks main hand and 3 attacks offhand which keeps your AB up for all 6 attacks when using NH (unconfirmed, I just recall someone stating this...I always though attacks were always removed from the last attacks in the last flurry, but even if that is the case you'll have lower AB on the last 3, but more damage.) Also, if you're worried about multi-classing penalty, human won't have one unless you have 3 BASE classes and all 3 are more than 1 level apart from each other... PRCs do not count for purposes of multi-classing rules.
3. Ranger 13/F12/FB5 - Not great as Enhanced IPA is more for two-handers, but still effective since the -6 AB applies +10 damage equally to the off-hand... FB could of course also be added on a Tempest build as well...Key is Expose Weakness essentially nullifies the IPA penalty after the second application.

If you want to go 19 (or 17) DEX/MAX INT split some interesting options:

SB5/F12/D10/SD3 - With 19 DEX you can qualify for SD and with max INT, Fighter feats and Dervish you'll have solid damage. Note this only really works with Hand axes or Kukri's since you need finesse slashing weapons. Also note without epic precision you have a serious issue against crit immune enemies... This is the reason TWF builds usually opt for either STR based or DEX+ sneak attack and epic precision. However, you can go for deadly defense and do well enough even against crit immunes.
Ranger25/SB5 - DEX/INT based Ranger would be an interesting and unique approach with loads of skills and favored enemies to combat crit immunes.

These are just a few idea's for you to think about so you can consider your options. In general I advise when going Sneak attack you either go full bore that route or don't, but that doesn't mean it can't work if you want some sort of hybrid.. (even Fighter 14/R16 can work perfectly well after all).

[darwin.evenwood]

Well those builds are very very interesting. Many thanks Chad.
Especially the Ranger25/Swash5 is something I may really like. With the Ranger spellbook could be very interesting and easier to play.

So, now I am about to decide between the ranger/swash or the rogue/swash/assassin

The main issue I can see is the AB. The ranger build won’t get very high DEX so even with high BAB won’t reach great AB and has no HiPS in dungeon, what would be a good spot for this kind of build in terms of AB?
The rogue one has pretty much all Medium BAB classes but all the goodies of HiPS. What about the AB of a sneaking character? How much should it be?

Thanks!

[chad878262]

Attack bonus will be fine....assuming 16 DeX and max int you will be at 20 DeX with cats grace... AB - 30+ 5(dex) +4 (eb) + 1 (epic prowess) - 2 (ptwf) = 38...+6 from expose weakness is effectively 44.

Rogue/sb/assassin will have more DeX and will use hips so will be fine even with 34 attack bonus.

[darwin.evenwood]

Well i decided to go for the ranger build. May not have all the fun mechanics of full HiPS but has a lot of skill points, Camouflage, HiPS Outdoor, spells.

About Favored Enemies what would you suggest?
I started with the usual giants and undeads (immune to critical also) and added elementals because of critical immunities and Monstrous humanoids also because of epic levels (i remember nagas or yuan-ti should fall in this category, epic gnolls also maybe) for the last two i thought dragons (maybe critical immune?) and outsiders.

[chad878262]

The 6 you listed would be the ones I recommend. You should be golden.

[sir_blacksoutalot]

Attack bonus will be fine....assuming 16 DeX and max int you will be at 20 DeX with cats grace... AB - 30+ 5(dex) +4 (eb) + 1 (epic prowess) - 2 (ptwf) = 38...+6 from expose weakness is effectively 44.

Chad, how you coming up with +6 AB from Expose Weakness? The feat is only supposed to cause -3 AC. I feel like I'm missing something here.

[darwin.evenwood]

It should stack for two rounds. It lasts 4 rounds with 2 rounds of cooldown, so it will give -6 AC