Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

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TheKai
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Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by TheKai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:45 am

Sword of the Arcane Order
Type: General
Source: Champions of Valor

Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic.
Prerequisite: Paladin 4th of Azuth or Mystra, or ranger 4th of Mystra; member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire, the Order of the Shooting Star, or the Swords of the High One.
Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare Wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard).
These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character's spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook.
If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels.
Special: Azuth has a paladin order called the Swords of the High One. Mystra has a paladin order called the Knights of the Mystic Fire and a closely allied group of rangers called the Order of the Shooting Star. Members of all three of these groups can select this feat as long as they are at least 4th level in their respective order's primary class.


Any chance this could get added? Or an iteration of it from a balance perspective?

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Lockonnow
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by Lockonnow » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:56 am

is this a homebrew thing?

TheKai
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by TheKai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:10 am

Lockonnow wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:56 am
is this a homebrew thing?
No, the source is at the top. Champions of Valor sourcebook.

chad878262
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by chad878262 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:59 am

This feat would make gishes far stronger... S8/AK10/P12 would be a CL30 sorc whole having level9 wizard spells and level 3 paladin spells?
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Theodore01
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by Theodore01 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:50 am

Far too powerful for one feat.
Maybe as a Paladin Kit, but it needs a big drawback. Like loss of divine spells and more probably ....
And it would allow EDM wizard builds - do we really want them ?

TheKai
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by TheKai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:31 am

chad878262 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:59 am
This feat would make gishes far stronger... S8/AK10/P12 would be a CL30 sorc whole having level9 wizard spells and level 3 paladin spells?
Fair point. How about making it a ranger only kit then? Still too strong?

chad878262
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by chad878262 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:24 am

TheKai wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:31 am
chad878262 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:59 am
This feat would make gishes far stronger... S8/AK10/P12 would be a CL30 sorc whole having level9 wizard spells and level 3 paladin spells?
Fair point. How about making it a ranger only kit then? Still too strong?
Unfortunately yes Kai. Ranger is still high BAB and one feat essentially allows you to make a full wizard/ranger. Consider someone making a gish out of R12/W8/EK10... GTWF/Shield Bashing (maybe) gish with 26 BAB and CL30 wizard spells. The issue is the feat allow full BAB classes that are have no drawbacks or requirements to give full caster progression on one of the best spell lists out there. Better to make a new PRC designed around being an Eldritch Paladin or Ranger. Something that allows partial progression, but has the penalty of needing non-progression classes. I could see something like an Eldritch Knight PRC for Ranger/Paladin with 10 levels that gives between 6-9 levels of spell progression, but requires you to know at least level 1 wizard and ranger or paladin spells. Thus you would need 4 levels of Ranger or Paladin and a level of Wizard or Sorcerer (maybe Bard for Rangers). So you might end up with something like P4/S6/EK10/NEW PRC 10 which could reach CL 25 (assuming 6/10 progression and PSC feat)... This would essentially mirror what can already be done today with Dragon Slayer or Bladesinger, but perhaps have some flavor to it around Paladin/Ranger/Mystra etc.

Make sense?
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

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TheKai
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by TheKai » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:57 pm

chad878262 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:24 am
TheKai wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:31 am
chad878262 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:59 am
This feat would make gishes far stronger... S8/AK10/P12 would be a CL30 sorc whole having level9 wizard spells and level 3 paladin spells?
Fair point. How about making it a ranger only kit then? Still too strong?
Unfortunately yes Kai. Ranger is still high BAB and one feat essentially allows you to make a full wizard/ranger. Consider someone making a gish out of R12/W8/EK10... GTWF/Shield Bashing (maybe) gish with 26 BAB and CL30 wizard spells. The issue is the feat allow full BAB classes that are have no drawbacks or requirements to give full caster progression on one of the best spell lists out there. Better to make a new PRC designed around being an Eldritch Paladin or Ranger. Something that allows partial progression, but has the penalty of needing non-progression classes. I could see something like an Eldritch Knight PRC for Ranger/Paladin with 10 levels that gives between 6-9 levels of spell progression, but requires you to know at least level 1 wizard and ranger or paladin spells. Thus you would need 4 levels of Ranger or Paladin and a level of Wizard or Sorcerer (maybe Bard for Rangers). So you might end up with something like P4/S6/EK10/NEW PRC 10 which could reach CL 25 (assuming 6/10 progression and PSC feat)... This would essentially mirror what can already be done today with Dragon Slayer or Bladesinger, but perhaps have some flavor to it around Paladin/Ranger/Mystra etc.

Make sense?
Instead of the wizard spell requirement, couldnt the req just be Required Deity: Mystra, Azuth, Savras. Required alignment: Any non evil.

chad878262
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Re: Suggestion: Sword of the Arcane Order feat

Unread post by chad878262 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:22 pm

that is actually not a terrible idea at all, but I think it would still make them overpowered. For Paladins I can't see any reason why you would ever replace their amazing spell selection with the ability to cast Wizard spells levels 1-4, but for Rangers, while their spell list is certainly improved, they would lose almost nothing by switching to the wizard list and would gain a LOT... Every Ranger would benefit from giving up Aid, Halo of Sand, Barkskin and Treestride in favor of Spiderskin (bonus to hide on top of Barkskin AC), Herosim, Mirror Images, IMA, Deez's repulsive Shadow Barrier etc.

So again, I think it would need to be seriously looked at since it introduces a tremendous amount of power creep for exceedingly minimal cost.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands

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