Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Steve » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:02 am

Well, let's not forget that your PC's Alignment should determine A LOT about how a Player would have said PC "act" to the change/clarification to the IC/IG situation.
Last edited by Steve on Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:28 am

dolorof wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:13 pm
The Whistler wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:19 pm
There is strict protocol for entry to any militarized zone in the modern world and I assume the same goes for our make believe universe. Allowing anyone to come and go as they please is a surefire way to have your back lines sabotaged by malice and your front lines sabotaged by ineptitude. Not just orcs and obvious banites, but also well meaning individuals should keep that in mind when they're entering a battlefield. Take your time to introduce yourselves to the more veteran PCs there, ask them how your character may be of use to the war effort and follow their lead. I'm sure they'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
I think this is right, as long as those PCs agree to be inclusive and not exclusive for personal reasons.
If you are proven to be an unregistered warlock to the Flaming Fist, you would be punished for that, yes. Baldur's Gate requires registration as a warlock.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:29 am

Sputnik wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:14 pm
Since this area is now under official BG jurisdiction, wouldn't that mean that the following laws would also apply?
-------------
- Spell casting — forms of arcane or divine usage of magic that result in physical harm or manipulation of the other, are forbidden.

- Summons of Elemental or Companion in nature are forbidden, and such action will result in punishment fitting the crime. Summons of all other means, such be it undead or planar in nature, shall result in banishment or death of the summoner, as determined by judicial ruling.
-------------

Good point. I will add something to handle this, but ultimately neither will be permitted when there is not an attack going on.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:36 am

Wade wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
I disagree that the dangerous frontline that could use any aid, is constantly attacked and can be breached anymoment should have the same rules as peaceful farmlands.
I mean the restrictions on player behaviour should ICly be much stricter, as its a military encampment. There should and are be a ton of concessions to playability however.
Wade wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
So far, we have had two (three?) orcs,
I had not realised orcs were frequenting the frontlines, the one time its happend while I have been DMing I sent them off on pain of death.
Wade wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
necromancy usage (but no undead),
Isn't illegal!
Wade wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
Ebon Blades with banite broches and so forth
This would be illegal, but being Baneite per se is not - only public worship
Wade wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
helping to defend the barricades, this RP was awesome, does it mean this all really should be retconned? Instead, I think it should be noted RP wise that all the abovementioned shady people actually protected the fort from destruction. Also, does it mean summoning elementals/angels should be banned as well? And face covering is not allowed?


These PCs have HELPED protect the fort, yes, but not to the Degree that the Fist are going to waive Baldurian laws. So yes face covering will be checked and summoning outside of combat or unless authorised should be considered frowned on.

Wade wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
My point is the frontline must have special rules and have lots of exceptions and be in general more tolerant to various shady acts than the rest of the Duchal lands.
Alas, that is not the IC situation.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:41 am

metaquad4 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:19 pm
With guards so powerful as to create peace-time circumstances on a war front, who even needs player assistance? :lol: Our job is done folks, no need to assist the NPCs any more.
I'd prefer that players have their characters react ICly to the IC situation, but also the warzone as a whole. Of course this war is bigger than the PCs; and its bigger than the one map that is in game. but of course the contribution of players matters. I don't think we're helped by hyperbole, or indeed a strawman that suggests because the Flaming Fist might not accept help unconditionally, they dont need any help at all. One does not equal the other.
metaquad4 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:19 pm
Yeah, this seems a little odd. I guess all the enemy needs to do is strap cats to them and use enlarged kittens as cavalry. Players who attack them will be godmodding war criminals!
Its not godmoding when there is DM supervision. So when I spawn cat cavalry, we can RP out the Fist's reaction :lol:
metaquad4 wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:19 pm
Not to mention, as pointed at above, all casters who proceed to cast offensive or summoning spells are also godmodding.
While Mallore points out the common sense of this below its a fair point that the letter of the law is insufficient here so I will amend

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:47 am

Rain wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:40 pm
It's a strange rule at-least from my perspective from an RP sense but I can understand it from a mechanic / In game sense.

I find it a little hard to believe that a front-line to an active battle field which is being constantly attacked by trolls, devils andall manner of hellish creatures would be able to just nullify chaotic action in the area in every corner, during every hour of the day. Realistically it's just impossible for the solid fact that the area is already chaotic in nature simply for the fact that it is a battle-feild already. There is constant fighting there and countless injuries to date and so be believe the guards there simply wounder out past the barricade and past the seemingly endless amount of hostile creatures that they are defending from on a regular basis to secure the area is far fetched.

Now I can understand the area behind the barricade as well as the bridge crossing as a NO GO ZONE similar to rules that govern the area around the gate to the FAI and it's walls. But to strictly point god modding if a person is scheming past the guarded barricade inside the lines of the fiends and trolls ESPECIALLY at night. . . No sorry not in the current situation there. Maybe if there was some DM rumored push back of the devils from the area AND there was no mob spawns there I could be more open to agree with the recent law ruling there.

But in understanding the DM's probably want less hassle to deal with in the area as they are already busy enough. I can understand why it is in place for that reason.

///Edit: Of course this all just my opinion not stating anything I say matter of factly.
ICly the Flaming Fist patrol/scout beyond the barricades and up and down the river. The idea is, that if there was some major circumstance that would develop on the area immediately near the fort the Flaming Fist would become aware and react. Perhaps not immediately, but sooner than some players seem to have understood - hence the summoning of undead in view of "the patrolled area" and orcs on the frontline, etc being problematic, as it assumes the Fist would do nothing. They would.

The spawns north of the barricade represent stragglers etc, and are there for player amusement. Its to let players feel involved in the fight against the devils when DMs aren't around. I'd rather not ask for them to be removed in order to justify the Flaming Fist's presence though. Instead I would like the players to collaborate in understanding that this section of the Frontline represents part of a Baldurian war effort, PC and NPC, and to RP in a way that respects the NPCs.

I think we are granting quite a lot of latitude as is! (note that the map to the north will be peopled with stronger devils soon and it will not be subject to laws etc)

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:51 am

Flayeriv wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:53 pm
Speaking as one of the orcs affected by this.

I am totally cool with it.

Fact is, that a regimented warzone would do its best to eliminate any IMMEDIATE and OBVIOUS threats. This includes people who either are orcs, are hiding their faces behind masks, or who cast particularl heinous magic. While the statement "Baldur's Gate Law" may be thrown around, the practicalities are the thing that matters.

It's perfectly In Character to say "Baldur's Gate Law" and for the Fist to then happily overlook certain things, such as the summoning of archons or elementals or whatever. Sure, it might be more accurate for the fist to enact a form of Martial Law or Wartime Law, but that's politics that I don't have the right characters to RP with :p. But seriously, for me it's a bummer because some of the best RP was on the barricade, but at the same time, there's the Boareskyr Bridge available, and on top of that it gives my character more incentive to try and be friendly with the Fist.
This is a good post from my perspective.

The reason we dont have a full set of subsidiary laws is it might create player confusion, and is more work for the DM team!

Instead its more a case of "sensible application of the law" covered under "Its military jurisdiction".

It requires people to work with it and hence, this thread, where I am asking people to work with it.
Flayeriv wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:53 pm
The only thing I'd like to see is a couple more fist soldiers floating around near the bridge. Just at the bridge, I think that will make ALL of the difference RPwise.
This can be done if it would help. I could ask for them to be labelled "Flaming Fist Patrol"

They need to stay away from the barricade though or there are AI issues

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:52 am

Bobthehero wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:12 pm
Wade wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
Ebon Blades with banite broches
Zhentarim* :lol: although its not too obvious to those outside the Zhentarim

Personally, I had my Banite respect the law regarding mentionning worship of Bane around the front, just in case.
Open symbols of Bane would be illegal and they would be asked to be put away, most likely.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:57 am

dolorof wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:13 pm
The Whistler wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:19 pm
There is strict protocol for entry to any militarized zone in the modern world and I assume the same goes for our make believe universe. Allowing anyone to come and go as they please is a surefire way to have your back lines sabotaged by malice and your front lines sabotaged by ineptitude. Not just orcs and obvious banites, but also well meaning individuals should keep that in mind when they're entering a battlefield. Take your time to introduce yourselves to the more veteran PCs there, ask them how your character may be of use to the war effort and follow their lead. I'm sure they'll be glad to point you in the right direction.
I think this is right, as long as those PCs agree to be inclusive and not exclusive for personal reasons.
I am all in favour of inclusive RP, but I do not want players to feel they have to break character in order to be inclusive, as this is also an RP world. Ideally one can be both, but the player whose paladin refuses to fight alongside a red wizard is entitled to RP that way without being considered a bad player, or assumed to be so by the player of the red wizard (insert any other combination of hostilities and apply the same logic).

I tend to take the view that the IC should lay where it does between players then I will compensate as a DM, when I am DMing

I am very deliberately rping the NPCs as taking a realistic IC view of the setting, various factions and actions, for good or ill - and rewarding RP that also takes account of that. That applies mostly in the Duchal Court RP I am doing but it also applies on the Front. I know a lot of the other DMs take a similar approach, to give some weight and purpose to the sort of political RP many players profess to like

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:02 am

Addendum to the laws is up!

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Rain » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:15 am

DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:47 am

ICly the Flaming Fist patrol/scout beyond the barricades and up and down the river. The idea is, that if there was some major circumstance that would develop on the area immediately near the fort the Flaming Fist would become aware and react. Perhaps not immediately, but sooner than some players seem to have understood - hence the summoning of undead in view of "the patrolled area" and orcs on the frontline, etc being problematic, as it assumes the Fist would do nothing. They would.

This is understandable. I do have some counter arguments to this but they aren't worth going into as they are very minor.

DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:47 am

The spawns north of the barricade represent stragglers etc, and are there for player amusement. Its to let players feel involved in the fight against the devils when DMs aren't around. I'd rather not ask for them to be removed in order to justify the Flaming Fist's presence though. Instead I would like the players to collaborate in understanding that this section of the Frontline represents part of a Baldurian war effort, PC and NPC, and to RP in a way that respects the NPCs.

Ah then that answers my previous speculations of the area and those spawns. To my inital understanding I was under the assumption those devils were suppose to represent the forward lines of the fiends. If they are just stragglers then my previous statement is void.


DM Golem wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:47 am

I think we are granting quite a lot of latitude as is! (note that the map to the north will be peopled with stronger devils soon and it will not be subject to laws etc)
Now this is where I need to speak on something from what you said here. If you were truely granting quite a latitude as you say then there would be three fronts to this event already. It already seems the more lawful players of the server have a place to go and contribute their time and resources into the plot (In both the front line and the soubar bridge). They have a base of operations and a front line to defend from the evil / chaotic forces of the fiends.

Now with that being said you guys have already confirmed that counter forces of this plot (the devils) are seeking people to fight for their front too. There is proof of that here.

Note:
DM Spartacus wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:15 am
A single Imp skitters to a halt at the imposing entrance to Kraak Helzak, a parlay stick waving in the breeze. A squawking voice callas across the divide. "Now is your chance. Surrender now...and you can join in service with the army of Yogi the Devil, or die, what'll be?. There is a brief disbelieving silence from within. Then another Dwarven voice replies "The Imp is right we should yield and share the treasure, ale and profit for it is better than dying and I should know. Open the gates to them!
So with the bit of information why is there nothing for the people who wished to fight on this side currently in place? There is no front-line for them no base of operations nor is there even a window of opportunity currently for PC's to even join this side when you guys clearly have shown DM rumor of being able too. Now of course it's fairly obvious the repercussions that would come for joining the axis forces but from what ive read above NPC's can come up with reasons to join the axis side be it survival or something to gain. PC's of course would have their own reasons as well if the opportunity from the team was there, but it's not and I find that in most cases when there is ally vs axis THERE NEVER IS!.

Why does no one take the initiative to make a -font-line- for the fiends?

Why not instead of just making the central winding way a 2nd attempt at a CR 30 area (similar to the old baator portal in dragon spear) it is instead a place where the axis contribute against the ally and take down the stragglers and scouts of the bauldarians? Even if this is too much or there is some rhyme or reason you can't, still I find it strange that there are never mobs in place that are suppose to be "good" for the evil to fight / defend against. Which would probably answer alot of questions similar to the one thread where the person was questioning: "Why to even buff smite good in the first place?"
cosmic ray wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:23 am
The main problem would remain in the form of a complete, or nearly complete, lack of targets outside of PvP. :(
There is a fairly obvious imbalance of opportunity here. Especially in an event where there should plenty of it to choose from instead of 2 ally sides vs 0 axis sides. I find that only allowing the team and not the players to control what it is the axis does for chess moves is totally out of touch and overlooked by the many players who want to play that side on this server. And this answer you gave me only further proves my point more. If you truly were granted latitude on this topic then there would be more window of opportunity for all players to procure be that because of their alignment, god, goals, gains or sheer hatred against the forces of evil vs the forces of good. IE: Paladins vs Black guards mentality.

And of course this can all be done without PVP interaction at all! You guys have already nullified that by proceeding with this ruling. Thus IF the axis line was involved the ruling would still stand as vice versa while allowing the axis party to contribute to their plot with their own mobs to kill and challenges to overcome.
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Mallore » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:41 am

@rain and any other who wishes to be The Dark Side


There are two fronts. The first which has become mostly dominated by those players who call Baldurs Gate City home and often thought of as “the good guys”. We all know what guilds these are. That is fine. And they wanted laws. And now they have them. This is roleplay and was bound to happen.

The second front is by soubar. Where the “bad guys” have rein but mostly lawful bad guys. Orderly forces of chaos. ;). We know which guilds these are and no laws currently apply to this area with the expection of Banes law “might makes right”. Atleast this is how it seams to me. How players act and how players brought it about so far.


From what I understand a few people Want to join the devils. Want to join super team evil end of the world?

I love this kinda idea. Join the axis. Be the villain !! Some times the most amazing things can be told here. Maybe there is no other finer roleplay and as a player or storyteller this would be amazing to do - but I’ve been there and got the experience.

First, why would any character do this unless they are insane or some how think they would actually end up anything more then a Lemure. But that is a side point.

In my experience these things go very poorly for the Bad Guys and all it does is drive a few good guys batty and grouchy. It would take a dm fully dedicated to this smaller roleplay angle then any other. As that poor dm has to not only keep the story going for the evils but also make sure it’s not smashing unfairly everything.

-deleted. Deleted and deleted. -

The results is putting DMs against their very player base. This becomes a giant OOC mess in the end with people accusing each other of stuff, DMs infighting and then the whole thing crashes down with a few people quitting and no one remembering the better part of the story.

Basically. We are a community and everything we do should be to further each other’s stories and grow. Cooperative story telling should be the goal not trying to one up each other. As such I personally believe, even though I would love to support an axis, be that axis it is not good for the server or community. I would further say that with the idea of cooperative play, ask yourself how would your character try to stop the devils. The reasons are endless if not also selfish.

This opens the gate to cooperative play and a more fulfilling story for you and all the other players of the server. And nothing says..... while your helping defeat the evil your not secretly plotting for an upper hand against this realm later ;)
Last edited by Mallore on Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Steve » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:52 am

Mallore wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:41 am
First, why would any character do this unless they are insane or some how think they would actually end up anything more then a Lemure. But that is a side point.
Why have the Warlock class, then? Devils can and DO grant massive POWER. Simple, quick means to "power beyond mere mortals...." So, levels of delusional Being aside, there is a clear answer.

But related more to topic at hand, I would ask Rain: did you go to the DMs with you Role-play concept, and ask for support? What was their answer?

Because I can tell you that whether playing a Good or Evil PC, if you have "big ideas" and don't ask for support, directly, you're a) not going to get it; b) going to get push back if you assume you SHOULD have received it.

One answer that is rarely floated, but probably should be, is that if a Player wants to really represent the Evil mindset and antagonize PCs on the Good end of the spectrum...hellz, even the Neutrals and the Evils too...then consider "playing" the Role of DM. You'll never have a shortage of Players that want to try their hand against your attentions! :twisted:
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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by DM Golem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:33 pm

I should say there is a settlement on the server that is broadly devil aligned currently.

However I don't expect to be offering support for a "team devil" (or should I say Team Hellsteel - I don't run all the devils, only Hellsteel Tower, which is the one attacking the Winding Waters), as direct combatants rather than as spies/infiltrators/allies, in my plotline outside of what I am already doing. I have enough on my plate and given the number of PCs who have asked for this from me (one), it would likely be a very short plot if it was done fairly, as they would fall a casualty of war. It also isn't true to how devils work, unless said PCs are very obedient and disciplined. The kind of RP I have seen arising from attempts to "be the bad guy" is not at all how my NPCs would act.

My experience both last time around and this time around as a DM is that there isn't one character or alignment archetype that doesn't handle conflict well compared to others, or is more prone to OOC reactions over IC matters than others. I would ask you, Mallore, not to express such as its not helpful to this thread (Although I am not a forum moderator) and the purpose of it. It comes across a bit like playing to the crowd, unintentionally, and certainly comes across like a sideswipe to players of non-evil PCs.

Note, the Flaming Fist enforcing what they would around the fort isn't "something lawful PCs have lobbied for", its what makes sense IC and I am a bit surprised that people saw the Fist Fortress on the map that ICly contains a full company of Flaming fist and thought it would be any different. This is just me publicising it and giving a reality check.

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Re: Flaming Fist Fort Map - IC Jurisdiction and Metagaming Guards

Unread post by Rain » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:49 pm

Steve wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:52 am
If a Player wants to really represent the Evil mindset and antagonize PCs on the Good end of the spectrum...hellz, even the Neutrals and the Evils too...then consider "playing" the Role of DM. You'll never have a shortage of Players that want to try their hand against your attentions! :twisted:
My point at the moment is why do you need to be a DM to do that? Why do PC's never get the chance? Or when they do it's something so small and meaningless that it comes across as a minor problem that is fixed in a weeks time to the protagonist?
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