Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

What is the counter to hide in plain sight?

According to the nwn2 wiki...

Due to the method by which perception is handled in NWN2, it is possible for a character with this feat to get sneak attacks against an opponent with vastly superior detection abilities by canceling combat and hiding at the very end of their combat round and attacking right at the beginning. By minimizing the time between hiding and attacking, this minimizes the chances of the target getting a chance to perceive the target while it is hidden. This tactic effectively removes any counter to a character with hide in plain sight catching his opponent flat-footed for the first flurry of his attack.

How is this ability balanced? I went on an underdark trip to the surface recently and 90% of the group had HIPS. We should take from the fact that everyone and their dog wants to put HIPS in their build, that there are balance issued related to the ability. What is the view of the community on this matter?

Do you mean a pvp counter or a counter that pve mobs should have against pcs?

What's your exact question?

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:44 am What's your exact question?

The sentences that ended in question marks denote exact questions.

1. What is the counter to HIPS?
2. How is this ability balanced?
3. What is the community's position on the balance of this ability?

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:44 am What's your exact question?

The sentences that ended in question marks denote exact questions.

1. What is the counter to HIPS?
2. How is this ability balanced?
3. What is the community's position on the balance of this ability?

1. Spot/Listen/Scent/AoE
2. Well enough, very slightly overpowered
3. No changes needed

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:18 am 1. Spot/Listen/Scent/AoE

The OP's argument is that spot/listen are NOT counters to HiPS. Now, while that assertion is only partially true, it bears understanding of a few things.

1. HiPS in the specific scenario listed (utilizing at end of one combat round and attacking immediately) requires expert timing and with potential lag/hiccups/etc. still requires a bit of luck. In addition this the mechanic itself is hard coded and there isn't really a way to change it so how would one propose to keep Rogue's viable in PvE without it? HiPS is not only their means of offense, it is their primary means of defense (most sneak attack based builds have Fortitude and Will Saves between ~9-15). It is one thing to call a mechanic OP, but one must also consider what alternatives there are to that mechanic. While their are HiPS Mages and HiPS Weapon Masters and other 'dips' that grab 3 levels of SD for HiPS and are otherwise not sneak builds (including builds that only have the 8 or 10 skill points allocated to qualify for SD so are not even sneaks), there are far more of the PC's/builds that simply do not work at all without HiPS. So how would the OP propose to balance it differently without completely obliterating any sneak based builds ability to stay alive and enjoy the server?

As to balance, let's talk about abilities and game balance... Clerics and Favored Souls, even after the 'nerf' to Divine Power still remain stronger melee Fighters than any Warrior/Melee build and can maintain this power fully between the rest timer, thus they are only in any way negatively impacted in DM events with restricted resting (and even then they can keep it up for nearly an entire event if they are judicious and do not fully buff for every encounter). STR and EDM Bards are also better than any melee/non-caster build. Some Gishes (Bladesinger or DragonSlayer builds) are built well and also better than any non-caster melee. Do you see a pattern here? D&D is not a well balanced game when you compare classes against each other. While to you HiPS may seem OP, watch that sneak go in to HiPS unwarded and get owned by Wail of the Banshee or Weird or Mass Hold Monster or simply tossing a perfected alchemist fire in the area they entered HiPS.

If someone were trying to HiPS/attack a spotter that spotter could simply run a few steps back upon the attacker entering HiPS too...

Simply put, mechanically speaking there are counters to HiPS'ters and (other than HiPS Mages and a few other outliers) most are tier 2 builds at best and can be beaten by skilled players fairly simply with the right preparation. It boils down to player skill (of both characters)...

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am 1. What is the counter to HIPS?
2. How is this ability balanced?
3. What is the community's position on the balance of this ability?

1)

• AoEs of any sort (you'll need to be on point and track where they vanished and where they are likely to go). Or if you have whirlwind attack, just spam it until they reveal themselves. Perfected Alchemist Fire Flasks (can buy from Master Alchemists, Druids, and Sun/Fire domain clerics) can also help, you can even toss it at the HiPser as they vanish and it will hit them if you time it right.
• Investing in Spot/Listen (activate search mode) ranks, as well as gearing yourself with Spot/Listen equipment.
• High AC (as long as it isn't dex or dodge based) if they are a sneak attacker.
• Save spells, if you play a DC-dedicated character (most HiPs characters, even HiPs mages, have relatively lower saves).
• Using UMD or spells, take CC spells. AB-reducing spells are pretty effective on HiPs rogues, given their naturally lower AB. STR-draining spells can be effective as well, as many HiPs characters are also low STR and will become encumbered. There are a few CON-draining AoE spells that can put them into a panic as well, like Blood to Water [weaker, but if you have no other alternative...] or Cloudkill.

It honestly depends what you are playing. There are some builds that can't cope, but as long as you have gold you can compensate a little. You'll run into a hard-counter eventually, at it's core D&D is a team game even in PvP. 1v1 PvP will always be horrid in some aspects, because you will never make a build that can counter EVERYTHING.

Eventually you'll run into something you can't cope with, be it something your build can't counter mechanically or simply a superior player.

Having team-mates is the most powerful thing in PvP. If you run into something that you can't seem to counter, then having something with you who can counter it is beneficial.

I specify PvP, because for PvE (which this server is balanced around, as balancing for PvP really isn't necessary or desired. Balance in D&D in general isn't exactly desirable, with a game this diverse balance is going to be wack, but fun.) this question is irrelevant.

(Also remember that this is an RP server first. Even if you "lose" in PvP, you should get some RP out of it, which is the ultimate goal anyway.)

2) Well. There are plenty of ways to outplay it.

3) See #2.

The only answer I've heard so far remotely approximating a real counter is to have a high AC. That covers the 10% of builds that specialize in AC, provided they stand around with their shields out in improved expertise all the time.

There's also this logical fallacy I see in discussion of balance where, because people can think of some hypothetical scenario in which something might be countered, it's therefore balanced.

The question isn't just "does a counter exist?" but "how prevalent and achievable is this counter, compared to how prevalent and achievable the ability is?"
"Have a 60 AC" doesn't work for me as a counter because you basically have to make your entire build about AC to get there, whereas you can get HIPS with hardly any work at all and, as I mentioned earlier, you can abuse it due to its poor implementation to kill people who have way better detection skills than you.

Why don't we call a spade a spade here and admit that the reason HIPS is so prevalent, and the reason we're so quick to defend it, is because we like having a disproportionate level of power at virtually no cost?

In order to continue a productive discussion, we are going to have to give the 'opposition' the benefit of the doubt in terms of trusting their words and thier motivation. If not, it seems like we are just here to rant and complain, and that won't last long. It is fine to disagree, even encouraged, so long as points are refuted without assigning motivation and intent.

As other have said, there are counters that have and will continue to be used in game. Just as most HIPS users must specialize in stealth, expecting some if their counters to specialize in their skills seems appropriate. Whether that is investing feats and items into spotting aids, high AC, or abilities that take advantage of low saves - there are counters out there.

HiPS is totally OP. From the incredibly short cooldown to the fact that it breaks targeting lock when timed right even if the Hipster fails it's H/MS check, give it the highest status of OPness.

Sure, there are plenty of ways to counter HiPS, and it's not hard for a Player to learn. And yes, usually sneak/HiPS builds have plenty of weaknesses that can be exploited in PvP and even make playing a sneak very difficult in Epic Areas.

On the level of one-to-one Feat comparison, I'd say HiPS reigns as OP. But there are plenty of Builds NOT with HiPS that are far more OP in general. Not to forget to mention that playing a HiPSter can be epically boring, since it's main Mode is a one-off move, for offense and defense. Yawn.

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:14 pm The only answer I've heard so far remotely approximating a real counter is to have a high AC. That covers the 10% of builds that specialize in AC, provided they they stand around with their shields out in improved expertise all the time.

Do you have stats regarding the ammount of high AC builds? Why 10%, where did you get that number? Although yeah, high AC is always good.

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:14 pm There's also this logical fallacy I see in discussion of balance where, because people can think of some hypothetical scenario in which something might be countered, it's therefore balanced.

There is no logical fallacy, we described methods that work against hips, and there are lots of them in fact, from detecting a sneaker to blasting him with AoE or simply outliving stealth attacks. There was very little of hypothetical situations in what Chad and metaquad wrote.

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:14 pm The question isn't just "does a counter exist?" but "how prevalent and achievable is this counter, compared to how prevalent and achievable the ability is?"
"Have a 60 AC" doesn't work for me as a counter because you basically have to make your entire build about AC to get there, whereas you can get HIPS with hardly any work at all and, as I mentioned earlier, you can abuse it due to its poor implementation to kill people who have way better detection skills than you.

Given how detection mechanically works in nwn 2, with equal spot against hide (and move silently against listen), spotter always has a huge advantage. Right here, you just focused on 60 Ac as the only working counter against hips and build your defense line based on it, so who is busy with logical fallacies here?

Zymth wrote: ↑Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:14 pm Why don't we call a spade a spade here and admit that the reason HIPS is so prevalent, and the reason we're so quick to defend it, is because we like having a disproportionate level of power at virtually no cost?

It's not virtually no cost, it's heavy investment in Hide/MS gear, because without it you'll actually be detected by almost everyone.

Also, not to sound rude, but someone must say it already. Your messages have a hostile tone, Zymth (both here and in ranger builds thread). It feels like you hardly read what other players write you (although they sincerely are trying to explain how mechanics work in general and in server meta alike). Instead, you're just blindly arguing with them, ignoring most of what was said to you while actually having a very limited idea of how even basic game mechanics works (not talking about server meta). Despite this, your messages are written in a dry and agressive tone, so do you really seek for advice or just bored and want to argue?

90% of UD toon have hips?

meaning if you have 1 spotter, 90% of them cant hide from you?

how is that spotter not OP?

Also, not to sound rude, but someone must say it already. Your messages have a hostile tone, Zymth (both here and in ranger builds thread). It feels like you hardly read what other players write you (although they sincerely are trying to explain how mechanics work in general and in server meta alike). Instead, you're just blindly arguing with them, ignoring most of what was said to you while actually having a very limited idea of how evem basic game mechanics works (not talking about server meta). Despite this, your messages are written in a dry and agressive tone, so do you really seek for advice or just bored and want to argue?

One of my central points was that HIPS can be abused against people who have vastly superior detection skills, to which I received the reply "the counter to HIPS is detection skills."

One of the reasons I'm so strident about these issues is that they are so obviously legitimate issues, and that the counter-arguments routinely ignore the actual arguments I made, which is beligerant. Ignoring the fact that HIPS can be abused to beat out superior detection skills doesn't constitute a sincere attempt to explain to me the mechanics of the game.

The truth of the matter is that I expect to offend people when talking about HIPS because HIPS is so entrenched in the culture here that any discussion about balancing it is going to upset people. There's no delicate way to tell a person they're wrong. I expect people to be rationally self-interested, and its in peoples' self-interest to defend an overpowered feature that they love.

Do you have stats regarding the ammount of high AC builds? Why 10%, where did you get that number? Although yeah, high AC is always good.

The figure was used rhetorically to illustrate that this counter, which seems to me the only really reliable one, is not widespread or easy to achieve; as I mentioned earlier, discussing balance we need to investigate not only whether or not a counter exists, but whether or not the counter is accessible enough to serve as a reasonable counterbalance.

Maybe you should contact Obsidian since they made the game... All of us just play it mate. HiPS is not a BG specific ability after all.

Also, I stated it earlier, but obviously missed... If someone enters HiPS you can move away (more quickly than them) and thus avoid the issue you are talking about that they can abuse it with lower stealth than your detection.

If they are a ranger or wilderness stalker you could just pop a potion of ethereal visage or mirrors/displacement or stone body or any number of other combinations which essentially makes their attacks useless.

Also, I stated it earlier, but obviously missed... If someone enters HiPS you can move away (more quickly than them) and thus avoid the issue you are talking about that they can abuse it with lower stealth than your detection.

Does this strategy work against someone using a bow?
Does it work against rangers who have 100% stealth movement speed outdoors?