A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Suggestions for Improving Existing Area Maps or for Altering Area Maps to Reflect In-Game Plots

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JIŘÍ
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by JIŘÍ » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:02 pm

The point is entirely elsewhere.-

Each encounter should be rped individually as it provides unique experience.

The pre set demand on fear in Ud is hilarious. When an archamge level 30 who carries groups over enemies during massive world events, who visits Durlags Tower three times a day from top to bottom and handles it with one hand behind back, suddenly enters a tunnel and out of NOWHERE rps fear and worries, it is so damned immersion breaking and unrealistic.

Like you spend your entire life time in dungeons from top to bottom without a blink of eye then, upon entering upper tunnels of UD you are strucked with that awsome terror just because….you are underground? It gives totally no sense. It makes no consistency on character's role play.

I do not wish to encourage anyone to play fear based on mechanical systém (aka wordless pvp). No, save god. I am just saying pre setting one thing for one area while ignoring the same thing in half of areas elsewhere is nonsence.
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K'yon Oblodra
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:09 am

Strange this is answered now XD.

Well maybe not far but a certain unease would make sense I'd think.
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by Steve » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:18 am

I’d argue that IF the Underdark could be accurately, mechanically (game engine) represented as it has been described in Canon Lore, both Player and PC would suffer the fear-esque consequences of travel there.

And, let’s not forget to mention that Drow Society is one that upholds a constant power struggle society that is not against murder and sacrifice. Really, just really imagine what that would be like.

But when you place a Society like that in a game world WITHOUT Permadeath (exists but not enforced), there is really no chance to have a 1-to-1 experience with Canon Lore (i.e. as the UD should be).

Not to be totally crass, but it is Underdark Light (as in weak). And the RL history of BGTSCC shows the tens of players that have either been kicked off or left in frustration from trying to change it to be more Canon reflective.

So, two things:
1. Massive game engine (mechanics) limitations to represent the UD.
2. Server Rules and OOC issues that throttle Role-play (at least some crucial ways f the Drow we learned from FR publications and novels = Canon).
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|> Jon SmythePath of the Mindful Blade & Seafarer
|> Simsae OrcslayerStonesinger of the Telormar Gultor & citizen of the Kingdom of Kraak Helzak
|> Monserrate — Circle of Rust and the Worm

JIŘÍ
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by JIŘÍ » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:26 am

Steve wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:18 am
I’d argue that IF the Underdark could be accurately, mechanically (game engine) represented as it has been described in Canon Lore, both Player and PC would suffer the fear-esque consequences of travel there.

And, let’s not forget to mention that Drow Society is one that upholds a constant power struggle society that is not against murder and sacrifice. Really, just really imagine what that would be like.

But when you place a Society like that in a game world WITHOUT Permadeath (exists but not enforced), there is really no chance to have a 1-to-1 experience with Canon Lore (i.e. as the UD should be).

Not to be totally crass, but it is Underdark Light (as in weak). And the RL history of BGTSCC shows the tens of players that have either been kicked off or left in frustration from trying to change it to be more Canon reflective.

So, two things:
1. Massive game engine (mechanics) limitations to represent the UD.
2. Server Rules and OOC issues that throttle Role-play (at least some crucial ways f the Drow we learned from FR publications and novels = Canon).
yET uD IS as variable as surface. There are places of beuty same as places of terror. There are llothite societs and other societies of drow. Ghaunaudarite city, the biggest in Ud, is far from constant power struggle. There are even llothite cities where power struggle and open murdering for power is reserved only for clergy while rest of city does not give a damn and go on their Merchant buisness. There are towns and cities of good aligned or neutral races. There was even drow village of good deties which existed for centuries until it was destroyed (and when you look at history, this is fate of any city soon or late).

In FR cannon there are hudnreds of adventurer parties going down. On BG none.

Lets not cherry pick.
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Steve
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by Steve » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:44 am

Again, your point, though valid, can not overcome the mechanical limitations of BGTSCC.
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|> Jon SmythePath of the Mindful Blade & Seafarer
|> Simsae OrcslayerStonesinger of the Telormar Gultor & citizen of the Kingdom of Kraak Helzak
|> Monserrate — Circle of Rust and the Worm

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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by JIŘÍ » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:47 am

Steve wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:44 am
Again, your point, though valid, can not overcome the mechanical limitations of BGTSCC.
I am not saying it should.

if you reread my posts, i just point out it is awknard to demand a character to fear one underground tunnel while he runs happily another underground tunnel with same enemies three times a game day. It just makes no sense. So in one place he should be scared of possible drow encounter and in the other, it does not matter though he directly fights drow npcs? It just carries no consistency.

Yet noone is demanding that all characters should fear or feel uneasy when descending into depths of Durlags tower or any other dungeon.
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Steve
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by Steve » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:56 am

The Upperdark, at least in my understanding, is not a dungeon (Durlags, etc.). It is a World. Magnitudes more complex, and dangerous.

However, if you ARE arguing that, if we should only respond/RP to what actually exists IG, as the UD is interpreted on BGTSCC, then yes, it is questionable to ask for some OOC fear required in all RP when engaging with the UD—hence why I refer to it as “Underdark Light” (sorta kinda pun intended! :dance: ).

Thing is, if I read just your last reply for example, the OOC nature of “...runs happily another underground tunnel with same enemies three times a game day...,” makes it difficult to take your position seriously. Because what you describe is such OOC behavior for a Role-play Server.

And again, that is MY point: for a Role-play Server, there are two very impossible-to-ignore aspects that get in the way with providing a fair representation of the UD, from the ground up (ha! Puns a plenty today!).

Anything else hung on this false “groundwork” will be...shaky, at best.
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|> Jon SmythePath of the Mindful Blade & Seafarer
|> Simsae OrcslayerStonesinger of the Telormar Gultor & citizen of the Kingdom of Kraak Helzak
|> Monserrate — Circle of Rust and the Worm

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Snarfy
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by Snarfy » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:44 pm

JIŘÍ wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:02 pm
The pre set demand on fear in Ud is hilarious. When an archamge level 30 who carries groups over enemies during massive world events, who visits Durlags Tower three times a day from top to bottom and handles it with one hand behind back, suddenly enters a tunnel and out of NOWHERE rps fear and worries, it is so damned immersion breaking and unrealistic.
There's no pre-set demand on being fearful in the UD at all. Players can either decide to role-play in accordance with the lore(not the mechanical difficulty), or they can decide not to.

In the lore, the UD is supposed to be absurdly dangerous. Unfortunately, and as Steve has so eloquently pointed out, the UD in our current setting is rather watered down(Underdark-lite, lol, zing), both from a mechanical standpoint, as well as a role-play one...

For example: One could easily argue that it is just as immersion breaking to watch a level 30(a purely mechanical, and OOC, figure) Archmage carrying groups during massive world events( :? ... never seen it happen, personally), or ransacking Durlags 3 times a day with one hand tied behind their back(sounds like loot-grinding to me?) and behave as if that is somehow indicative of "In-character" power.

I mean, sure, that Archmage sure can rofl-stomp through a dozen zones of UD monster AI, but when they're faced with something truly life-threatening, like a group of drow PC's, shouldn't they suffer from an ounce of fear and common sense(IC'ly)? Or does that not apply, since they have their very own magical, and very OOC, "PVP out" card?

Like Steve said:
Steve wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:18 am
1. Massive game engine (mechanics) limitations to represent the UD.
2. Server Rules and OOC issues that throttle Role-play (at least some crucial ways if the Drow we learned from FR publications and novels = Canon).

JIŘÍ
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by JIŘÍ » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:09 pm

Shouldn't you treat Pc same as NPC?

I will borrow words from my friend playing elsewhere (he plays dwarven king):
"It is like when players run up to me screaming there is a goblin on the trade route. All i can say, is, really? A goblin? What the fuss."

Said trade route has goblins as spawn and he refers to spotted goblin pc.
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Snarfy
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by Snarfy » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:38 pm

JIŘÍ wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:09 pm
Shouldn't you treat Pc same as NPC?
I'm not sure if it's even possible to treat them the same, to be honest. Lets use drow as a better example, since we're talking about the UD.

If your character sees a hostile drow NPC, it'll attack your character 100% of the time, and thus... your character can kill it.
If your character sees a drow PC, you're free to try to kick that drows (hiney), but only after the necessary RP.

The BIG difference here is:
- The NPC drow can only send your character to the fugue(if it wins). In which case, you lose some gold.
- The PC-drow, on the other hand, can pretty much... do nothing, since you, the player, can either opt out of the fight entirely, or bounce right back up on your feet after getting beat up, and continue on your merry way.

Neither of these outcomes sounds very terrifying, do they? And the reason for that is: they lack any in-character or role-play context.

And the moral of this story is(... if there is one): you have the choice to treat the lore, and setting in-character, or not.

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K'yon Oblodra
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:10 pm

I wonder about the rule, a surfacer is kill on sight in the UD right?

That only counts off they are not covering themselves with a hood and mask right?

Also what about the issue of discerning elves and half-elves from drow, humans from deep Imaskari, dwarven from duergar, gnomes from svirfs?

This is more of an OOC thing, also I am more curious than really concerned XD.
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Blackman D
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Re: A radical suggestion for the Underdark

Unread post by Blackman D » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:47 pm

they are kos in the tunnels yes, if you can identify then so yea being covered avoids that part too, even tho anyone can tell the difference between an elf and a non elf figure...

killing anywhere close to the city becomes a dangerous grey area

as for the others, pretty much the same as being covered, you have to be able to identify the difference
everyone is evil till proven otherwise

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