Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

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Grendunor
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Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Grendunor » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:00 pm

For a while now deathward has been improved to be more like it's pen and paper counterpart. Unfortunately I am not high king of Skyrim Nwn2 is not pen and paper and removing deathward's ability to stop ability drain and damage has what I assume is unintended balance consequences.

[See Crippling strike sneak snowball builds]

While the previous incarnation saw the use of Deathward wand vs Breach wand in terms of defensive and offensive counter play while the current incarnation requires enough UMD or a master alchemist to provide stonebody scrolls/elixirs for preventative measures.

You could say Use a wand/potion of restoration, but in terms of action economy that is an efficient way to not longer exist.

My secondary suggestion if deathward is going to remain in it's pen and paper state we upgrade heal to act as it should in Pen and paper and apply the logic used to justify the deathward change to healing spells.
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:01 pm

Crippling strike is that very reason I agree with this post. Yes, Death ward was overpowered before, but after its nerf crippling strike became overpowered instead. I play a strength based character and one flurry of crippling strike blows makes it overburdened. No save, no protection from it, nothing — is it normal? (it's not) The only protection from it is stone/iron body, but it lowers your ac dramatically and cuts your movespeed unless you had FoM on you before, seems like an overkill to spend so much efforts countering a passive feat triggering with every sneak attack.

I'd say the thread should be called "nerf crippling strike" instead and I fully support it. This ability is OP. It should be made Fort-save based with a DC equal to Blinding strike DC or something.
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K'yon Oblodra
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:20 pm

Just for PvE I sometimes wished shadow shield would protect from ability drain or some other arcane spell...
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Lockonnow
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Lockonnow » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:09 am

well what i have been told there is a wizard spell in DnD spellworld that sould proection one from that cant remember the name of it
Last edited by Lockonnow on Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DaloLorn
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by DaloLorn » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:33 am

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:01 pm
Crippling strike is that very reason I agree with this post. Yes, Death ward was overpowered before, but after its nerf crippling strike became overpowered instead. I play a strength based character and one flurry of crippling strike blows makes it overburdened. No save, no protection from it, nothing — is it normal? (it's not) The only protection from it is stone/iron body, but it lowers your ac dramatically and cuts your movespeed unless you had FoM on you before, seems like an overkill to spend so much efforts countering a passive feat triggering with every sneak attack.

I'd say the thread should be called "nerf crippling strike" instead and I fully support it. This ability is OP. It should be made Fort-save based with a DC equal to Blinding strike DC or something.
Honestly, while I like Grendunor's secondary suggestion... it definitely wouldn't solve this problem.
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Hoihe
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Hoihe » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:58 am

I am 100% certain this was the intended change.

You could shut down an integral class mechanic of an otherwise pretty (p00pie) class with a single spell or two (pfa/mindblank and death ward).

You don't need fort saves. Rogues already have basically no AB.

Spotting sneakers is stupid easy. You have 1d20 bonus on top of more abundant gear and buffs.

You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.

This is a PvP issue anyway, so pretty irrelevant.

In PvE, rogues must have crippling strike work without a save to have a fighting chance, as it helps mitigate their non-existent AC which is forced on them by grossly-inflated spot/listen scores mandating a full set of stealth gear over what you would normally go for.

I do however support buffing Heal to P&P levels.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:03 am

Hoihe wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:58 am
You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.
problem solved...

if you can cast death ward you can cast lesser restore

if you can use death ward UMD you can use lesser restore UMD

...im not seeing an issue here :?
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by DaloLorn » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:20 am

Blackman D wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:03 am
Hoihe wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:58 am
You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.
problem solved...

if you can cast death ward you can cast lesser restore

if you can use death ward UMD you can use lesser restore UMD

...im not seeing an issue here :?
The OP did address why that was a problem. If you spend each round drinking restoration potions or using restoration wands, you are essentially locked down, harmless until the ability damage stops coming. (Which... admittedly, should happen unless you're being flanked or fighting a HiPS build. Then again, since this constitutes the majority of half-decent builds that would have access to Crippling Strike in the first place... :|)
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Theodore01
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Theodore01 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:43 am

Haven't noticed any problem with the 'altered' deathward yet. And i play many different builds.

People are just too used to be invulnerable all the time. Any step to bring some danger back to the sword coast is a good one.


Is it a specific area that is problematic ?

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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:57 am

Hoihe wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:58 am
I am 100% certain this was the intended change.

You could shut down an integral class mechanic of an otherwise pretty (p00pie) class with a single spell or two (pfa/mindblank and death ward).

You don't need fort saves. Rogues already have basically no AB.

Spotting sneakers is stupid easy. You have 1d20 bonus on top of more abundant gear and buffs.

You can fix ability damage with a potion of lesser restoration with ease.

This is a PvP issue anyway, so pretty irrelevant.

In PvE, rogues must have crippling strike work without a save to have a fighting chance, as it helps mitigate their non-existent AC which is forced on them by grossly-inflated spot/listen scores mandating a full set of stealth gear over what you would normally go for.

I do however support buffing Heal to P&P levels.
You're selling rogues extremely short, Hoihe, but yes, it's a PvP issue and it -is- rellevant.

For a moment, even before DW nerf every single rogue build still used to pick this feat as a prerequisite for epic precision. And now this feat also gives extremely powerful ability drain that doesn't require to click any extra buttons or otherwise put efforts — it just automatically triggers with any sneak attack. In other words, you play the same quite playable and powerful rogue, BUT you're also sapping enemy's strength to the ground and make them unable to move with every attack. And it's just one passive feat that wasn't even picked for that purpose!

Overpowered feat is not something that can't be countered at all. It's something that gives too many benefits for a disproportionately small cost. Swashbuckler's weakening critical, for instance, is well balanced. Crippling strike is not.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:43 pm

fight a swashbuckler that has 7 WM and a 13-20 crit range on a rapier and see if you feel that they are not the same then

or maybe it just seems that way because swash is still stopped by stone body and rogues are no longer stopped with their ability

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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Snarfy » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:27 pm

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:57 am
Swashbuckler's weakening critical, for instance, is well balanced. Crippling strike is not.
Yes it is, for rogue heavy builds at least. They have to get something out of being complete gimps VS server content, don't they?

Oh, wait... do you even have a toon with rogue heavy investment? I'm betting not, because, if you did, you'd complain less about crippling strike, and more about those low Will and Fort saves.

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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by electric mayhem » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:09 pm

Side note: Got a feeling this deathward change was to nerf the hellfire warlock con drain immunity. Probably alongside other reasons of course.



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Blackman D
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:45 pm

no hellfire was nerfed directly for that, it doesnt work at all if you are unable to lose con

that was done a rather long time ago
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Sputnik » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:15 am

Deathward is fine as it is.
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