Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

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Tanlaus
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Tanlaus » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:41 am

Anyone complaining about anything being OP on a rouge really needs to level one some time. It’s a lot less glamorous on the other side of those abilities (HiPS included) when you also have to deal with everything they come with. Low AC. Low fort and will. Low HP. Medium BAB on a melee character, or close range at least if you want SA damage)...

Don’t get me wrong, I love rogue archetypes. They’re fun to play and their utility makes them great additions to any group. But on a general power scale they are far from the top of the list.

Seriously, level a rouge. Throw in assassin or shadow dancer levels for HiPS. Get to R 10 for crippling strike and see how you go from absolutely not blowing through all your enemies to... not really noticing much of a difference.

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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Hoihe » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:45 am

Tanlaus wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:41 am
Anyone complaining about anything being OP on a rouge really needs to level one some time. It’s a lot less glamorous on the other side of those abilities (HiPS included) when you also have to deal with everything they come with. Low AC. Low fort and will. Low HP. Medium BAB on a melee character, or close range at least if you want SA damage)...

Don’t get me wrong, I love rogue archetypes. They’re fun to play and their utility makes them great additions to any group. But on a general power scale they are far from the top of the list.

Seriously, level a rouge. Throw in assassin or shadow dancer levels for HiPS. Get to R 10 for crippling strike and see how you go from absolutely not blowing through all your enemies to... not really noticing much of a difference.
And needing to wear +H/MS gear in every single available slot or be spotted. Server made some effort to vonpensate for this with ninja gear, but that is minimal. You still need to have both weapons and every trinket provide it.

And in PVE, (almost) every boss is immune to ability drain, many of the enemies are immune to ability drain as well and take half damage.

In pvp, the whole class is shut down with half the skill point cost and more abundant UMD (amplify, clauraudiance (listen) > spiderskin, camoflague (hide))
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Deathgrowl » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:00 am

Hoihe wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:45 am
And needing to wear +H/MS gear in every single available slot or be spotted. Server made some effort to vonpensate for this with ninja gear, but that is minimal. You still need to have both weapons and every trinket provide it.
Not really. At the same time, even more spot gear was made available. Unless you're a ranger with high dex, or are otherwise outfitted with grandfathered sneak gear, most people wit just 33 ranks in spot (and no skill focus), will be able to gear up to see you relatively easily.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Hoihe » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:49 am

Deathgrowl wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:00 am
Hoihe wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:45 am
And needing to wear +H/MS gear in every single available slot or be spotted. Server made some effort to vonpensate for this with ninja gear, but that is minimal. You still need to have both weapons and every trinket provide it.
Not really. At the same time, even more spot gear was made available. Unless you're a ranger with high dex, or are otherwise outfitted with grandfathered sneak gear, most people wit just 33 ranks in spot (and no skill focus), will be able to gear up to see you relatively easily.
Wouldn't Listen be better, due to Amplify and most stealth buffs going to Hide?

And i meant mostly as "stealth gear now provides some ac rather than nothing like it used to", but fair point on spotters keeping up
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by chad878262 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:23 am

Listen is better if you want to be a 'spotter' with minimal investment, but there are several things that make spot better:

1. you can actually target the stealthed character. Listen will show where they are, but you cannot target them.
2. Spot works against Feint and, when/if it is working, disguise. It is simply useful for more situations than listen.
3. You can still (in general) get spot high enough to be able to spot ~80% of sneaks within ~10 rounds or so (faster if in detect mode and stationary).
4. Light spell grants penalties to hide, meaning you actually can get more 'buffs' to spot than you can listen.

off topic here, but yeah, #roguelife
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Winterborne » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:38 am

Personally my issue with crippling strike/weakening crit/wounding crit is not the frequency with which they are applied (both go off fairly frequently once you account for the lower AB of the rogue vs the high ab/crit chance of a swash build, and I think this is fine).

It's the duration.

There's no reason these abilities need to last RL hours on someone when applied while persisting through rest. It should be the sort of thing where if you're consistently attacking something, you will continually stack the stat drain, but if you stop for long enough, it goes away. It should be incentive to keep the pressure on and a tool to let you do so to press an advantage on a foe weakened via cunning(a very roguish thing). You should not be able to run off and leave someone at 0 str forever.

Personally I think with a shorter duration (4 rounds like EW maybe) we could start to look at removing the immunity to ability drain from the many things it's on from a PvE perspective.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by chad878262 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:13 pm

not a bad idea at all Winterborne. Tie it to total sneak dice / Swashbuckler levels. Something like Crippling Strike = sneak dice / 2 rounds (so 12 sneak dice = 6 rounds duration) and Weakening/Wounding Crit = 1/3 SB levels, so SB16/WM7/D7 as an example would have a weakening crit duration of 5 rounds while SB23/WM7 would have a Weakening/Wounding crit duration of 7 rounds.

When speaking of applying duration I always like to consider rewarding more devotion to a class. This would also provide a small penalty to those builds that utilize Rogue 10 for Crippling Strike, but only end up with ~5-8 sneak dice since the duration would only be 2-4 rounds. (though to be fair, most of those types of builds really do not need a nerf since they are sort of self-nerfed by making a sub-standard build).

Anyway, not a bad compromise IMO.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Hoihe » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:39 pm

chad878262 wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:13 pm
not a bad idea at all Winterborne. Tie it to total sneak dice / Swashbuckler levels. Something like Crippling Strike = sneak dice / 2 rounds (so 12 sneak dice = 6 rounds duration) and Weakening/Wounding Crit = 1/3 SB levels, so SB16/WM7/D7 as an example would have a weakening crit duration of 5 rounds while SB23/WM7 would have a Weakening/Wounding crit duration of 7 rounds.

When speaking of applying duration I always like to consider rewarding more devotion to a class. This would also provide a small penalty to those builds that utilize Rogue 10 for Crippling Strike, but only end up with ~5-8 sneak dice since the duration would only be 2-4 rounds. (though to be fair, most of those types of builds really do not need a nerf since they are sort of self-nerfed by making a sub-standard build).

Anyway, not a bad compromise IMO.
I think DA dice need to be counted with SA dice



And I don't really see how it would encourage devs to remove immunities from mobs in PvE. For PvP, lesser restore fixes it easily.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Winterborne » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:14 pm

As it is now, the things it works on, you can make trivial with it because it lasts forever. Once something has 0 str you can sit there and do almost no damage to it because it will have a much lower AB and damage, allowing you to take forever to kill it even if you are running away to heal/restore/etc periodically. Right now this duration is essentially permanent, and immunity is how things are kept relevant because otherwise you could hit and run basically forever and eventually reduce something to 0 STR.

If, however, the repetitive retreating caused the ability damage to be undone/fall off, it would mean you couldn't trivialize things in the same fashion while solo that you can now. And in PvP (Where a melee rogue is tending to do one flurry of sneak attacks every other round due to the cooldown on HIPS - and dealing low or no damage in the intervening rounds), it would mean that backing off to recover would let the target recover their ability damage as well.

That said, I personally don't have an issue with it since they get to attack with their sneak flurry every other round. If you're attacking while they are and drinking a restoration potion as they hide to attack you again, you're effectively even in terms of actions per round anyway, and the ability drain isn't going to win the fight for them.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:08 pm

I like the duration decrease for PvE, that does sound like it would open up possibilities.

Then again I do not believe I am in a position to judge balance XD.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by gedweyignasia » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:49 am

Maybe limit how many times Crippling Strike can be applied in a single round?
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Snarfy » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:18 pm

gedweyignasia wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:49 am
Maybe limit how many times Crippling Strike can be applied in a single round?
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:34 pm

Another option is to re-implement Negative Energy Protection, the 3rd level cleric spell as per NWN1, which used to be the natural counterpart to the 4th level Death Ward, which only used to grant immunity to Death Magic in NWN1. It was NWN2/3.5 ed. that combined the two into one obnoxious hr/CL spell.

Negative Energy Protection grants 100% immunity to negative energy damage (eg. Vampiric Touch, Harm), level drain (Enervation, Energy Drain) and ability drains. I've already seen the spell on random drop potions and scrolls (which are broken and don't work) so I know at least half the work of implementation is done already. Ensure the duration is not more than 1 turn/CL, although if this is felt excessive it could be reduced to 1-3 rounds/ CL.

3rd level means it can be put on wands and potions for UMD purposes, giving users outside the cleric class a short period of resistance (CL 5).

The other existing option is the 9th level cleric spell "Undeath's Eternal Foe", which gives immunity to all ability drain, level drain, poison, disease, death magic and negative energy damage in an AoE affecting all party members/allies for 1 round/CL. I have seen this spell occasionally drop as a scroll clicky for high-level UMD purposes, although that rare cleric character with Scribe Scroll could possibly make a decent profit selling these in light of the Death Ward nerf.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Mallore » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:18 pm

People need to remember Crippling Strike the requirement for Epic Prrcision has already been nerfed massively on this server. Keep in mind epic precision is a must for many “rogue” builds in epic levels on the server.

Nerf how? What many people do not know is that almost all bosses on BG are immune to Crippling Strike. As such a major defensive and offense Buff to the class has been removed all together. Example- crippling strikes lowers the attack and damage of Major bosses and is how it is intended to work, this is not how it works on BG. Further crippling strike is an alt attack way in destroying powerful foes where other classes with all sorts of immunities and offesive buffs just cake walk.

As such, rogues and other like builds must spend a valuable feat on crippling strike which is utterly useless in order to get a feat they desperately need in epic levels.

People complain about crippling strike because of pvp, though the servers often offical position has been they do not balance for pvp.

Further their is plenty of already in game defenses against crippling strike. Such as bring a partner with you to a fight as this protects you from getting locked down. Role playing your self out of the situation will also prevent all pvp and finally when in ultimate doubt just be cool.

I’m not sure why anyone would suggest a limited time on the crippling strike bleed when deathward can be worn for hours and extended. A massive improvement to the lethality of the server would be to lessen deathward to lessen then a hand full of rounds.

Anyways. Crippling strike is already been nerfed, it is useless in pve and is forced upon players in order to gain epic precision.

The fix should be how to improve crippling strike for pve as the pvp cure is already in the game, use your friends, rp out, don’t be foolish. :)
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:58 am

there is no ability drain that i can think of that has a duration short of "permanent until removed" so trying to nerf crippling strike that hard makes no sense

you can get lesser restore in potions, so there is no excuse for not being able to use it...
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