Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

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Young Werther
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Young Werther » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:16 am

A dragon shifted druid can't drink a lesser restoration potion and has to not only memorize the spell but cast it mid fight. Talk about unbalanced!
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DaloLorn
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by DaloLorn » Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:18 am

Blackman D wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:58 am
there is no ability drain that i can think of that has a duration short of "permanent until removed" so trying to nerf crippling strike that hard makes no sense

you can get lesser restore in potions, so there is no excuse for not being able to use it...
Every poison has a duration of "permanent until rest". IIRC, negative energy traps also only last until you've rested (though I may be mistaken on that one, as I can rarely afford a STR drop long enough to find a rest zone).

According to Winterborne, Crippling Strike cannot be undone by resting. Moreover, it cannot be defended against without resorting to a very limited array of high-level spells, most of which are only conveniently available to an actual spellcaster, and all of which cripple their spellcasting ability. (Though I guess autostilling would work just fine with Iron Body...) Poisons can be blocked by Neutralize Poison (sometimes :roll:), negative energy traps can be blocked with Death Ward or Shadow Shield, and both of them can be blocked with a high Fortitude save (and possibly Steadfast Determination).

Moreover, as he's already pointed out, reducing that duration could potentially be used to justify removing the ability damage immunity from some PvE mobs. It would end up being a net buff in exactly the situations where it's currently weakest.

Edit:
Young Werther wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:16 am
A dragon shifted druid can't drink a lesser restoration potion and has to not only memorize the spell but cast it mid fight. Talk about unbalanced!
Ehh, the druid could cast Oaken Resilience before shifting, or go for a treant/elemental form instead. The former confers sneak immunity for 10 minutes, the latter does it for the duration of the wildshape; I'm not too concerned with that.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:56 am

...lesser restoration is not high level and again is able to be used by store bought potion. It is no different than using neutralize poison on poison, and it always works to remove the poison its just that poisons have instant primary affects and sometimes secondary affects, but other than that, literally no different.

And lowering the duration would justify nothing, you would need to remove the arbitrarily high buffs from everything to make it easier for no health, no save, no AC having rogues

mob str is usually so high crippling does nothing before they finally die anyway, bosses are the only ones where it would be useful but most rogues would just die before they got any use out of it working :violin:
Young Werther wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:16 am
A dragon shifted druid can't drink a lesser restoration potion and has to not only memorize the spell but cast it mid fight. Talk about unbalanced!
if a dragon druid gets approached by a rogue you deserve to die... :hand:
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by DaloLorn » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:12 am

Neutralize Poison can prevent poisons from applying, in cases where the poison isn't bugged.
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Young Werther
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Young Werther » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:41 pm

if a dragon druid gets approached by a rogue you deserve to die... :hand:
You realize hips is horrendously broken. It's the reason I avoid playing rogues because they have to rely on a bugged mechanic. When I did everyone and the DMs made fun of my builds that had no hips spam dagger face clickie trick.
you deserve to die... :hand:
:o :shock: :? :cry:
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Ewe » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:44 pm

Just chiming in here, Druids are immune to poisons.

Further, if you're a Gray Orc standard dragon pure druid build you can activate tracking to enable racial Scent mode which makes a hostile target literally unable to use hips against you.

Even if they use mords scrolls your AC will be very high, good luck on them trying to hit you with crippling.

Besides you don't even have to do anything but cast mass drown a couple times on those guys.

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Young Werther
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Young Werther » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:53 pm

It's pretty silly to me that the only counter to bugged hips is scent, although this one is new to me. I wouldn't seriously say dragon druids are threatened by rogue 10 builds though.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Ravial » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:51 pm

Tsidkenu wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:34 pm
Another option is to re-implement Negative Energy Protection, the 3rd level cleric spell as per NWN1, which used to be the natural counterpart to the 4th level Death Ward, which only used to grant immunity to Death Magic in NWN1. It was NWN2/3.5 ed. that combined the two into one obnoxious hr/CL spell.

Negative Energy Protection grants 100% immunity to negative energy damage (eg. Vampiric Touch, Harm), level drain (Enervation, Energy Drain) and ability drains. I've already seen the spell on random drop potions and scrolls (which are broken and don't work) so I know at least half the work of implementation is done already. Ensure the duration is not more than 1 turn/CL, although if this is felt excessive it could be reduced to 1-3 rounds/ CL.

3rd level means it can be put on wands and potions for UMD purposes, giving users outside the cleric class a short period of resistance (CL 5).

The other existing option is the 9th level cleric spell "Undeath's Eternal Foe", which gives immunity to all ability drain, level drain, poison, disease, death magic and negative energy damage in an AoE affecting all party members/allies for 1 round/CL. I have seen this spell occasionally drop as a scroll clicky for high-level UMD purposes, although that rare cleric character with Scribe Scroll could possibly make a decent profit selling these in light of the Death Ward nerf.
Personally, I like these suggestions.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:24 pm

How would shadow shield play into all that?
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:28 pm

Young Werther wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:41 pm
You realize hips is horrendously broken. It's the reason I avoid playing rogues because they have to rely on a bugged mechanic. When I did everyone and the DMs made fun of my builds that had no hips spam dagger face clickie trick.
hips is not broken and the mechanic is also not broken and even heavily favors detection, so yea if you are a dragon druid - aka one of the builds that should have high detection and gets high AC meaning a rogue cant do anything to you... and a rogue is beating you... you deserve to die

thats not even a mean statement either, you can literally hit one button and kill a rogue... maybe two

anyone who plays a dragon druid has no room to complain about anything regards to a rogue - dragon druids and SF monks are rogue killers
Ravial wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:51 pm
Personally, I like these suggestions.
theres nothing wrong with it, but is there a pve need for it? because there is already Undeath's Eternal Foe which is highly underused that would be better to make useful rather than add something else in i think
K'yon Oblodra wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:24 pm
How would shadow shield play into all that?
it wouldnt? its already a custom spell that blocks negative energy and provides DR for its long duration... there is little reason to buff it more, especially since its arcane and arcane casters dont need anything more to make them that much harder to kill
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Young Werther
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Young Werther » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:55 pm

hips is not broken and the mechanic is also not broken and even heavily favors detection, so yea if you are a dragon druid - aka one of the builds that should have high detection and gets high AC meaning a rogue cant do anything to you... and a rogue is beating you... you deserve to die
The hips I hear of is broken. I never bothered to try it on this server so please tell me if it's different now.
nwn2wiki wrote:"Due to the method by which perception is handled in NWN2, it is possible for a character with this feat to get sneak attacks against an opponent with vastly superior detection abilities by canceling combat and hiding at the very end of their combat round and attacking right at the beginning. By minimizing the time between hiding and attacking, this minimizes the chances of the target getting a chance to perceive the target while it is hidden. This tactic effectively removes any counter to a character with hide in plain sight catching his opponent flat-footed for the first flurry of his attack."
This maybe balanced in the grand scheme of things, and rogues aren't really gaining much, but that's the gist of why people are complaining about stacking str drain damage in PvP. I don't like any of the crippling strike nerfs proposed since it nerfs builds without hips much harder.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Ravial » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:59 pm

Blackman D wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:28 pm
theres nothing wrong with it, but is there a pve need for it? because there is already Undeath's Eternal Foe which is highly underused that would be better to make useful rather than add something else in i think
I've added a bunch of mobs that do ability drain as one or their main tricks. Few of them are in orzogoth dungeon. But you make a good point!
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K'yon Oblodra
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:02 am

Blackman D wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:28 pm
K'yon Oblodra wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:24 pm

How would shadow shield play into all that?
it wouldnt? its already a custom spell that blocks negative energy and provides DR for its long duration... there is little reason to buff it more, especially since its arcane and arcane casters dont need anything more to make them that much harder to kill
You misunderstood my intention here, I meant if Deathward was nerfed if shadow shield would not also need a nerf as it honestly feels at least as strong as Deathward if not stronger.

Don't get me wrong I like it cause it grants me so much protection it's often the only defense I would really need. Many opponents just deal so little damage that you can almost heal against it just with regeneration on your cloak XD.

So yea it's so good everyone uses it at all times, though I am not asking for a nerf.
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Blackman D » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:19 am

unlikely, it does nothing for ability drain which is the complaint here

its strong against anything weak but aside from that its not exactly OP itself
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Re: Deathward - Make is prevent Ability damage

Unread post by Ewe » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:50 pm

Having played nwn1 much more than nwn2, I was surprised when I couldn't find NEP in my spellbook. What's even weirder is I actually found NEP potions off the loot tables in low level dungeons, but the potion had no on-use feature. Very strange indeed...

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