Optional Permadeath - implemented.

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Ewe
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by Ewe »

Tanlaus wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:21 pm
I’m not sure I’d agree with a perma only dungeon. Even though I plan to make a perma character, it doesn’t feel right to lock other players out of any areas, especially new areas. Punished people who may not have the time or desire to play a perma character.
Well yes and no. I mean there's plenty of areas my character cannot go in the game. For example, all the guild halls (I hear there's an entire dungeon in the SCCE vault). I don't think every PC can go everywhere. But I don't want to sidetrack this thread.

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Hoihe
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by Hoihe »

Warath wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:31 pm
1. Is there an option at a later date to have some sort of indicator/coloring on a players name to indicate they are a permadeath character?

4. Is anyone interested in creating a permadeath guild?
Ewe wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm


4. Perma Only Dungeon?
An end-game dungeon that can only be accessed by perma characters? Not sure how this would work lore wise, but it would give some incentive to people trying to level up one without giving any direct mechanical advantage.
I will start with the following:

With the system as it is implemented, I am perfectly fine with.

However, I do not believe it should be changed in any way regarding the above suggestions.

Warath's suggestions would be prone to abuse in. As Doom has put it, this whole debacle should be a private affair for the player doing it and the player above. Other players and even DMs (without having to var dive at least) should not be able to tell who is and isn't of "Mark of Death" alt-ruleset, nor should the player be able to produce any kind of proof that they are until the last death.

This will protect us from whatever sort of discrimination that might happen - be it in form of people avoiding the character for not wanting to deal with the pain of forming a friendship for that to abruptly disappear, or DMs/guilds favouring PCs who have it and ignoring everyone else who doesn't.

In fact, if this was provable in any way, I can imagine intrigue guilds demanding it in some way to ensure they can permakill traitors in a mechanically enforcable way without going through the DMs. While yes, PvP cannot perma someone, it doesn't take much challenge for a bit of OOC peer pressure to force someone to pve die enough times for it to kick in.


For Ewe -

The system should have absolutely no incentives to it.

It is a classic policymaker's trick to do the following.

Policymaker wants people to do a certain thing, but they cannot explicitly force anyone to do it.

Policymaker implements a system that rewards those who do a certain thing.

Some time passes.

Policymaker implements a general negative policy that affects everyone. It just so happens that the system they implemented some time ago happens to cancel out the negatives of this system!

Essentially, they managed to make a policy that implicitly punishes deviations from the certain things, without it being written anywhere.


In our case, we can have such happen by having devs/admins, over time, replace current end-game dungeons with permadeath ones - not at once, that'd be too obvious, but in a manner of a slow fall.

While yes, they could change the rules as it is, making such an explicit rule change at once is bound to have repercussions that even mellow people would have issue with. A slow fall however can make those with mellow opinions side with what appears to be the status quo if introduced slowly enough.

I believe one must examine a system and see how people with an agenda can use it to encourage their own agenda.



So once more - current system is fine, but it should remain 100% private with no way for players to tell at all, and for a DM to tell - they must go var diving. It should also have no incentives to it, for incentives can be used to balance out general nerfs, making deviations suffer implicit punishment.
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Tsidkenu
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

Warath wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:31 pm
1. Is there an option at a later date to have some sort of indicator/coloring on a players name to indicate they are a permadeath character?
If a player wants to trumpet their permadeath status, they can put it in the top line of their "Examine" bio.

I personally wouldn't because you're just asking for some troll griefer to give you a freebie to the Fugue.
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Do you want to panic over something that 99.99983% of the world population hasn't even died from?
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K'yon Oblodra
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra »

gotta make sure to have mastery of shaping on XD, just recently blasted someone to smithereens XD
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NeOmega
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by NeOmega »

cool

needs 2x XP.

Also, need to be able to wander the fugue when perm dead too. For some good fugue RP.

Druchii
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by Druchii »

Hoihe wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:58 pm
Warath wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:31 pm
1. Is there an option at a later date to have some sort of indicator/coloring on a players name to indicate they are a permadeath character?

4. Is anyone interested in creating a permadeath guild?
Ewe wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:06 pm


4. Perma Only Dungeon?
An end-game dungeon that can only be accessed by perma characters? Not sure how this would work lore wise, but it would give some incentive to people trying to level up one without giving any direct mechanical advantage.
I will start with the following:

With the system as it is implemented, I am perfectly fine with.

However, I do not believe it should be changed in any way regarding the above suggestions.

Warath's suggestions would be prone to abuse in. As Doom has put it, this whole debacle should be a private affair for the player doing it and the player above. Other players and even DMs (without having to var dive at least) should not be able to tell who is and isn't of "Mark of Death" alt-ruleset, nor should the player be able to produce any kind of proof that they are until the last death.

This will protect us from whatever sort of discrimination that might happen - be it in form of people avoiding the character for not wanting to deal with the pain of forming a friendship for that to abruptly disappear, or DMs/guilds favouring PCs who have it and ignoring everyone else who doesn't.

In fact, if this was provable in any way, I can imagine intrigue guilds demanding it in some way to ensure they can permakill traitors in a mechanically enforcable way without going through the DMs. While yes, PvP cannot perma someone, it doesn't take much challenge for a bit of OOC peer pressure to force someone to pve die enough times for it to kick in.


For Ewe -

The system should have absolutely no incentives to it.

It is a classic policymaker's trick to do the following.

Policymaker wants people to do a certain thing, but they cannot explicitly force anyone to do it.

Policymaker implements a system that rewards those who do a certain thing.

Some time passes.

Policymaker implements a general negative policy that affects everyone. It just so happens that the system they implemented some time ago happens to cancel out the negatives of this system!

Essentially, they managed to make a policy that implicitly punishes deviations from the certain things, without it being written anywhere.


In our case, we can have such happen by having devs/admins, over time, replace current end-game dungeons with permadeath ones - not at once, that'd be too obvious, but in a manner of a slow fall.

While yes, they could change the rules as it is, making such an explicit rule change at once is bound to have repercussions that even mellow people would have issue with. A slow fall however can make those with mellow opinions side with what appears to be the status quo if introduced slowly enough.

I believe one must examine a system and see how people with an agenda can use it to encourage their own agenda.



So once more - current system is fine, but it should remain 100% private with no way for players to tell at all, and for a DM to tell - they must go var diving. It should also have no incentives to it, for incentives can be used to balance out general nerfs, making deviations suffer implicit punishment.
Or if we were feeling less suspicious and more obvious:

The dungeon idea is moot on the basis that the system does not change any mechanical aspect about build. The only thing it does is that you'll die if you die. I don't think there's anything in the arrangement to have a dungeon run exclusively for perms death characters. IC it makes no sense given the hand wave approach to death. Godly whim basically. So what basis exists for a no gods allowed dungeon?

OOC its unnecessary because they are not handicapped. If you make the character it's very likely because you want to add some real risk to tour gameplay. Standard areas achieve that so it would be a poor investment of developer time.

Unless of course there was a conspiracy to effect a shift to perms death chars being the norm. <:D

I also don't see the merit in additional XP when the XP gain on BG is already so abundant. At least to me it is, coming from nwn1 where it definitely was not.

I do appreciate the concept that it would be nice to see more levels faster before a character inevitably finds their end. I did think about it but on balance I think leaving as is for now definitely works better until people get an idea as to average life expectancy. With care and team work though.. I suspect it won't be needed.
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Max Hatchet
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by Max Hatchet »

This is really good

We could do with more ideas like this to freshen the game up for those of us feeling a little jaded

Good work
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Hawke
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by Hawke »

So I have been away (more like off and on the forums for a while) and I just stumbled on this in Nexus. I think this is pretty freaking cool.

I do plan to try this new "feature" out but I have two reservations. Risk vs Reward. Tough to judge what bonuses or extras could come of having this status. I think it needs to have something to do with the character specifically. If it is an item, tie it with the character. So when they die, the item is worthless. And items granted at certain crossroads being class or area dependent, I am not sure. It would need more DM attention and depending on how many keep this up, depends on how involved it could be.

Second thing is that the dying even during a DM run event... This has me not wanting to join these events where in the past, I have died 1-6 times depending on the duration. Which was fine and good fun and 500 xp or something as a bonus for participation is always a boon and always brought back for free. With the Mark in play, not sure I would want to do these events. Maybe have some sort of buff, or grant an item that disappears on rest to prevent the death from being counted? Not sure.

But yeah, even with no rewards, I think I am going to start up a new character.... what do I pick for my crazy new build? Hmmmmm...
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Re: Optional Permadeath - implemented.

Unread post by Hawke »

A quick comment... I went to the graveyard today and I was scared poopless in there. Even with 16 HP to start with the backpack and high Con... I was concerned. Yall know what I am talking about, crit, crit, Boom dead. I survived though. This is actually more fun than I thought.
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