Shadow Dancer suggestions

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Tanlaus
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Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:36 am

Not sure how much attention this will get since it’s not really a popular class outside of a three level dip, but here goes.

I’ve been playing this class, both on the surface and UD for awhile now. If you check my post history I started with a ‘why would anyone play this prc outside of a HiPS dip’ to ‘hey this is pretty good!’ Had a lot of veteran players chime in with build help. So thanks for that.

Playing from scratch through epic levels in both settings (surface and UD) I have a few thoughts.

1) Shadow:

The shadow is great. It’s been buffed up and really functions well as a tank. Helps to let you keep hitting your sneak attacks. And thanks to Chad’s suggestion, yes buff it with scrolls (provided you have the UMD) and it still holds up pretty well in epic levels.

One minor tweak which would be greatly helpful for people who use their shadow, would be to buff its hide skill a bit. Move Silently is like 99 or 100 but hide is 30. Sometimes you might just want your shadow to follow you past some big group of creatures you don’t want or need to fight, and since you can’t unsummon it like a familiar, having a decent hide would be nice, and according to it’s description, pretty lore accurate.

I can’t imagine giving shadow a better his is much of a balance issue either.

2) Shadow Daze:

This is sort of like the assassin’s stun from death attack, except it’s effected by magic resistance and can only be cast once a day. It might be semi useful if it were in a timer or perhaps got additional uses as you level the prc. Something to make it more than mostly RP fluff.

That’s pretty much all I have. Otherwise I think people sleep on how useful this class is. It may not have the PVP value of a high sneak attack build (though it can get to 13d6 which is solid dps) but it’s extra abilities really shine in PVE.

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Hoihe
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Hoihe » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:54 pm

Tanlaus wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:36 am
Not sure how much attention this will get since it’s not really a popular class outside of a three level dip, but here goes.

I’ve been playing this class, both on the surface and UD for awhile now. If you check my post history I started with a ‘why would anyone play this prc outside of a HiPS dip’ to ‘hey this is pretty good!’ Had a lot of veteran players chime in with build help. So thanks for that.

Playing from scratch through epic levels in both settings (surface and UD) I have a few thoughts.

1) Shadow:

The shadow is great. It’s been buffed up and really functions well as a tank. Helps to let you keep hitting your sneak attacks. And thanks to Chad’s suggestion, yes buff it with scrolls (provided you have the UMD) and it still holds up pretty well in epic levels.

One minor tweak which would be greatly helpful for people who use their shadow, would be to buff its hide skill a bit. Move Silently is like 99 or 100 but hide is 30. Sometimes you might just want your shadow to follow you past some big group of creatures you don’t want or need to fight, and since you can’t unsummon it like a familiar, having a decent hide would be nice, and according to it’s description, pretty lore accurate.

I can’t imagine giving shadow a better his is much of a balance issue either.

2) Shadow Daze:

This is sort of like the assassin’s stun from death attack, except it’s effected by magic resistance and can only be cast once a day. It might be semi useful if it were in a timer or perhaps got additional uses as you level the prc. Something to make it more than mostly RP fluff.

That’s pretty much all I have. Otherwise I think people sleep on how useful this class is. It may not have the PVP value of a high sneak attack build (though it can get to 13d6 which is solid dps) but it’s extra abilities really shine in PVE.

Perhaps Shadow Daze could scale like Duelist's Improved Reaction?

At lvl 10, give it 5 uses, gained at 3, 5, 7, 9, 10
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chambordini
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by chambordini » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:59 pm

Difference being that uses require you to rest after a while and cooldown doesn't.

Just pointing that out, I tend to like uses more because resting is part of DnD.

Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:05 pm

For me they both have strengths and weaknesses.

Shadow Jump (another great ability) is on a timer so it can be used a lot without resting, but there is a 5 minute wait.

Shadow Evade only has three uses a rest but you can use all three in a big fight.

Once a rest for shadow daze just kind of makes it not worth taking up a space on your hot bar.

Adding more per level would be a great solution IMHOP.

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Blackman D
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Blackman D » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:43 pm

the shadow has a maxed out MS bc they dont make any noise once so ever, hide is lower bc you can still see them, basically its normal stats for a shadow

daze, anything done is kinda irrelevant unless its changed from daze to stun, daze is a mere annoyance to anyone that actually fails it while stun would be useful
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Mallore
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Mallore » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:35 pm

Blackman D wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:43 pm
the shadow has a maxed out MS bc they dont make any noise once so ever, hide is lower bc you can still see them, basically its normal stats for a shadow

daze, anything done is kinda irrelevant unless its changed from daze to stun, daze is a mere annoyance to anyone that actually fails it while stun would be useful
A shadow dancers shadow companion is more then a normal shadow and can follow simple commands such as “hide you knuckle head” justifying it having a higher stealth skill. It would be nice to have the pet be far higher and heck if I recall shadows at night are nearly invisible. :)

Though it would be wonderful if SD shadows where more like Druid pets do they can get their own name. It’s a big part of the sd background and could be a joy to rp.
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Blackman D
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Blackman D » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:47 pm

yea they are practically invisible in the dark but there is no way to have a difference in skill, at least without scripting something which is not my strong side

but yea there are a lot of things that would make them better
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Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:08 pm

Yeah I’m not advocating making them overpowered. They’re really pretty good especially if you buff them.

In the lore I believe they could literally become your shadow and/or disappear into shadows.

In theory you could summon and unsummon them like wizard familiars, sine they are supposed to be a familiar, but I get how that could be problematic.

Seems like boosting their hide would be a simpler solution.

Also to Mallore’s point, yeah purely for RP reasons I’d love it to function more like a pet.

Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 pm

Hoihe wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:54 pm
Tanlaus wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:36 am
Not sure how much attention this will get since it’s not really a popular class outside of a three level dip, but here goes.

I’ve been playing this class, both on the surface and UD for awhile now. If you check my post history I started with a ‘why would anyone play this prc outside of a HiPS dip’ to ‘hey this is pretty good!’ Had a lot of veteran players chime in with build help. So thanks for that.

Playing from scratch through epic levels in both settings (surface and UD) I have a few thoughts.

1) Shadow:

The shadow is great. It’s been buffed up and really functions well as a tank. Helps to let you keep hitting your sneak attacks. And thanks to Chad’s suggestion, yes buff it with scrolls (provided you have the UMD) and it still holds up pretty well in epic levels.

One minor tweak which would be greatly helpful for people who use their shadow, would be to buff its hide skill a bit. Move Silently is like 99 or 100 but hide is 30. Sometimes you might just want your shadow to follow you past some big group of creatures you don’t want or need to fight, and since you can’t unsummon it like a familiar, having a decent hide would be nice, and according to it’s description, pretty lore accurate.

I can’t imagine giving shadow a better his is much of a balance issue either.

2) Shadow Daze:

This is sort of like the assassin’s stun from death attack, except it’s effected by magic resistance and can only be cast once a day. It might be semi useful if it were in a timer or perhaps got additional uses as you level the prc. Something to make it more than mostly RP fluff.

That’s pretty much all I have. Otherwise I think people sleep on how useful this class is. It may not have the PVP value of a high sneak attack build (though it can get to 13d6 which is solid dps) but it’s extra abilities really shine in PVE.

Perhaps Shadow Daze could scale like Duelist's Improved Reaction?

At lvl 10, give it 5 uses, gained at 3, 5, 7, 9, 10
That’s actually a great idea and there’s precedence for it.

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Blackman D
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Blackman D » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:16 pm

Tanlaus wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:08 pm
Yeah I’m not advocating making them overpowered. They’re really pretty good especially if you buff them.

In the lore I believe they could literally become your shadow and/or disappear into shadows.

In theory you could summon and unsummon them like wizard familiars, sine they are supposed to be a familiar, but I get how that could be problematic.

Seems like boosting their hide would be a simpler solution.

Also to Mallore’s point, yeah purely for RP reasons I’d love it to function more like a pet.
they are **like** familiars in the sense that SDs get depression penalty like sorc/wiz does, but SD depression isnt from when the shadow dies, its from -trying- to unsummon it... so yea that would not be a feature to add if we are trying to be lore accurate, note that the attempt to unsummon hits the SD with depression

and no there is nothing that says the two ever merge together, but there is very little details governing how the SD and the shadow can interact, so while they cant merge there is nothing that says your shadow simply cant stick to you like glue and appear to be one with you

there is nothing wrong with giving them a higher hide, i just didnt want to give them a crazy high hide for their HD because they dont have any racial bonuses for hide aside from being nearly invisible in the dark which is not something i can do :?
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Mallore
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Mallore » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:35 pm

There is lore and in the rules that an SD can communicate to it’s shadow in a private language only the two can understand. Further they are capable of sending them on small tasks, there is a couple other things as well.


Though to achieve this just flavor and helpful rp thing, getting them more like Druid pets maybe awesome?

It’s a taste or life improvement and has no major pve prowess.
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Tanlaus
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Re: Shadow Dancer suggestions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:47 pm

Blackman D wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:16 pm
Tanlaus wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:08 pm
Yeah I’m not advocating making them overpowered. They’re really pretty good especially if you buff them.

In the lore I believe they could literally become your shadow and/or disappear into shadows.

In theory you could summon and unsummon them like wizard familiars, sine they are supposed to be a familiar, but I get how that could be problematic.

Seems like boosting their hide would be a simpler solution.

Also to Mallore’s point, yeah purely for RP reasons I’d love it to function more like a pet.
they are **like** familiars in the sense that SDs get depression penalty like sorc/wiz does, but SD depression isnt from when the shadow dies, its from -trying- to unsummon it... so yea that would not be a feature to add if we are trying to be lore accurate, note that the attempt to unsummon hits the SD with depression

and no there is nothing that says the two ever merge together, but there is very little details governing how the SD and the shadow can interact, so while they cant merge there is nothing that says your shadow simply cant stick to you like glue and appear to be one with you

there is nothing wrong with giving them a higher hide, i just didnt want to give them a crazy high hide for their HD because they dont have any racial bonuses for hide aside from being nearly invisible in the dark which is not something i can do :?
Yeah, again don’t get me wrong, not advocating summoning and unsummoning. Just saying a higher hide would be both useful and fairly in line with the lore. At least as far as what I’ve read.

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