Make Bleeds Great Again

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Tanlaus
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Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Actually they were never that great but that’s not a catchy title.

Basically I’m suggesting the bleed from the Arterial Strike feat, and the invisible blade’s bleeding wound, along with various weapon properties, should ignore DR the same way expose weakness does.

Even without DR in the equation there is a trade off, less damage up front for potentially more over time, that could be situationally beneficial at best. But once you reach epic levels both become essentially useless due to the majority of opponents having high damage resistance.

Better to have feats that are tactically viable and might allow someone to approach a differently than something everyone just advises against because they end up being useless.

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YourMoveHolyMan
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by YourMoveHolyMan »

Could make it positive damage to bypass any dr - and I agree that they're severely hampered by any amount of DR and thus unusable.
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Azroth
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Azroth »

Tanlaus wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:56 am
that could be situationally beneficial at best.
It already is situationally beneficial at best. What you really are trying to get at with your post is you either play a character with bleed and want to see it improved for yourself or you want to play a character with bleed and want to see it improved so you can play it up to your own standards :P

Bleed may not be the best for every and all tasks much like Feint, as anything should be as appropriate. But when it works it works.
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Druchii
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Druchii »

His motivation does not automatically mean his argument is not worth consideration.

Being situationally useful already is not a reason to improve it, nor is it a reason to not.

I would think that one of the first things to look at would be whether the feat works sensibly. Are we saying that DR should represent a toughness that means an opened artery was simply not possible? Or should the measure be that if the creature in question can bleed, it should so long as the attack breaches the DR and succeeds in wounding.

In reality, which this ain't, both situations could arise. Thickly skinned creatures with tough or flexible hide might not get hurt enough by a bite to even get an infection but could still be choked in the jaws of a larger predator (damage) I believe wolverines are an example of that.

Personally the way bleed should work, in my head, is if you took damage then the bleed should bypass. But I could also accept the reduction JUST prevented you getting at said artery/vein. The above rationale justifies it.
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Tanlaus
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Azroth wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:33 pm
Tanlaus wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:56 am
that could be situationally beneficial at best.
It already is situationally beneficial at best. What you really are trying to get at with your post is you either play a character with bleed and want to see it improved for yourself or you want to play a character with bleed and want to see it improved so you can play it up to your own standards :P

Bleed may not be the best for every and all tasks much like Feint, as anything should be as appropriate. But when it works it works.
Actually no, I don’t play a character with bleed. And mostly I prefer the direct damage to damage over time. But I do use expose weakness and it got me thinking about the idea of bleeds in general.

The problem with the ‘when it works it works’ line is that in epic levels it just doesn’t work.

Seems kind of a waste, no? Especially when expose weakness has a similar mechanic and works beautifully.

edmaster
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by edmaster »

Bleed needs to be re written since it is hard coded.

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Azroth
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Azroth »

Druchii,

Your comparing IRL facts to a game which it's mechanics don't always match up. The issue with bleed is not necessarily bleed, but the amount of creatures with DR out there on the server, more so late game. But keep in mind Bleed is a every time you strike ability and it's limitless to every time you strike unlike expose weakness that has a gap when it will happen if I recall correctly, and expose weakness is an epic feat you have to invest in so it has it's place already. Also something to consider when picking it apart.

Now I have said enough and will not be discussing this any further, as I know how this can go.
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Tanlaus
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Azroth wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 pm
Druchii,

Your comparing IRL facts to a game which it's mechanics don't always match up. The issue with bleed is not necessarily bleed, but the amount of creatures with DR out there on the server, more so late game. But keep in mind Bleed is a every time you strike ability and it's limitless to every time you strike unlike expose weakness that has a gap when it will happen if I recall correctly, and expose weakness is an epic feat you have to invest in so it has it's place already. Also something to consider when picking it apart.

Now I have said enough and will not be discussing this any further, as I know how this can go.
I think one thing we both agree on is that it’s not necessarily the bleed but the proliferation of late game dr that makes the feats ultimately worthless.

All I’m postulating is that having them bypass dr makes them work as intended as opposed to becoming obsolete.

I genuinely don’t understand why you have an issue with this. Do you use bleeds and find they are serviceable in epic levels?

Further expose weakness is applied every time you land your first attack, does not reduce the damage of that attack, and adds an AC reduction on top of that. It already leagues better than a simple bleed in terms of its epic qualities. The AC debuff alone would be worth it without the damage tick.

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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Druchii »

Azroth wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 pm
Druchii,

Your comparing IRL facts to a game which it's mechanics don't always match up. The issue with bleed is not necessarily bleed, but the amount of creatures with DR out there on the server, more so late game. But keep in mind Bleed is a every time you strike ability and it's limitless to every time you strike unlike expose weakness that has a gap when it will happen if I recall correctly, and expose weakness is an epic feat you have to invest in so it has it's place already. Also something to consider when picking it apart.

Now I have said enough and will not be discussing this any further, as I know how this can go.
Ok if you feel aggravated then thats fine but wasn't my intention - merely pointing out that what you assume is Tana's motivation shouldn't prevent bleed being discussed.

I also get the RL facts do not always apply but I used it to illustrate the ways one can think about bleed working from a sense check point of view. And yes bleed does stack, which i considered but i believe it lasts 3 rounds before wearing off. Perhaps that limits it's usefulness and it would be better to extend it? Perhaps not.

It's why we are discussing it.

Arguments don't have to be hostile mate.
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Steve
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Steve »

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Raivana
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Raivana »

Does it count as necroing if it's only two and a half months old?

I'd vote yes.. if this were a democratic process.. I'd say Arterial Strike would need to be changed a bit though since it would mean one hit could kill anything -eventually- so long as it didn't despawn, but bleeding wound from invisible blade only last 3 rounds like EW.
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Druchii
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Druchii »

Raivana wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:01 pm
Does it count as necroing if it's only two and a half months old?

I'd vote yes.. if this were a democratic process.. I'd say Arterial Strike would need to be changed a bit though since it would mean one hit could kill anything -eventually- so long as it didn't despawn, but bleeding wound from invisible blade only last 3 rounds like EW.
Agreed with you and Tan
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Blackman D
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Re: Make Bleeds Great Again

Unread post by Blackman D »

i wouldnt mind if they bypassed DR

however as a reminder they do bypass DR that is subject to weapon/damage type; if you are fighting something with /slashing with a piercing weapon your bleeds will also bypass

the main problem is flat DR ( /- )
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