Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hi everyone! I just posted to the New Player forum but also had some build questions before I dive into my long-term build. My apologies if this isn't the right section of the forum to ask this.

My goal is to create a monk-based character that works as a scout / infiltrator / spy. Basically someone who is hired to get into a well-guarded place that then retrieves intelligence, neutralizes a target, or acquires a specific item - and then gets out safely. Emphasis on stealth, speed, survivability (High AC, Saving throws, spell resist, etc). Decent at combat, but def not focus.

My hope was to have the base of the character be a lvl 20 monk with something else as the multiclass. Here are my questions:

1. What's the best class to multiclass with a monk for kind of char I'm trying to build? Thinking Assassin, Shadow Dancer, or Rogue. Would love your thoughts.

2. Should I go unarmed or Dual Kamas? Really unsure on this one, but I'm sure there's some NWN2 veterans on here that have strong opinions.

3. For the BG server, how important is the Open Lock skill? I've played on servers where it's redundant with bash and certain spells and I've seen servers where it is absolutely essential to have someone in your party with the skill to get the best loot. Please advise which scenario best fits the need for Open Lock skill in BG?

a) Unnecessary - Chest and doors can easily be bashed or opened with spells and the treasure isn't that much better than drops from monsters
b) It's okay - Some chests and doors cannot be opened without it and the treasure is somewhat better than regular drops from monsters/bosses
c) Essential - Open Lock is a must for any party hoping to get the best treasure. Many chests / doors cannot be bash or opened with spells. The treasure you find in these chests (or behind these doors) is by far superior than anything you can get elsewhere.


Thanks everyone!

Could honestly just keep it simple and make a monk / fighter / assassin.

Use the bonus feats from fighter to get your focuses for extra AB and BAB, Monk will net you alot of your survivabilty just for being a monk awarding you your natural AC, Spell Resistance, immunities and extra attacks a round. Then of course 8 levels of assassin to get hips, sneak attacks and death attacks along with your other assassin skills such as hide, movesilent, open lock, disable device, etc.

If you wanted more of a recon specialist however. . . I'd opt to trade out fighter for maybe a 3 rouge dip to get all the essential recon skills early and max them out. Hide, Movesilent, Disable Device, Open lock, (Maybe set trap :: There are a couple really good traps in the game) Slight of hand can be cool for DM events. The most important skill of course being Use Magic Device, so you can utilize scrolls and wands to make up for your weakness -at-least temporarily- and also provide you with things to get around and get out of places quickly such as teleportation scrolls. (Teleportation is universally a very nice thing to have.)


To answer you question about open lock: There are actually A LOT of recently added areas in the game that are only accessible if a group has a specialized lock-smith. Not only that but there are magical chest in the game in a lot of area that hold the potential of very epic loot but again. . . can only be opened with a specialized lock-smith in the party to open them. So IMO if you have the points to spare and you want to be a recon specialist anyway. You may as well slap those points in open lock. It has a lot of potential for usefulness and RP.

Thanks for your response! What would be the class breakdown you suggested? Would Monk 20, Assassin 8, Fighter 2 be an allowed build given that there's a rule about having 3 levels in all classes before 20? If not, then are you suggesting Monk 18, Assassing 8, Fighter 4?

There are many options, depending want you want to play: wisdom-monk or a dex-monk, dual wielding or not, ..... str- based drunkard could also work...., monk/phantom......

Regarding locks i would say b) It's okay - Some chests and doors cannot be opened without it.
But there usually isn't anything better in them !

My own thoughts on a "stealthy monk:"

Monk (11), Wilderness Stalker (7), Shadowdancer (6), Whirling Dervish (6)

Pros:
Lawful Fists
35% fast movement
HiPS + Epic Deflection + Epic Dodge
SD perks (boosted on BGTSCC)
Good H/MS
Good Pick Pocket
DC 26 on Shadow Daze (BG custom)
DC 25 Stunning Fist w/ Owl's
4d6 Sneak Attack
Swift Tracker
Camouflage + HiPS

But if you want Monk 20, then a Monk 20 / Assassin 10 with Intuitive Attack (pump Wisdom all the way) is quite good, and you have decent H/MS skills, and Death Attack will land enough to make it worth it. It is a late, late bloomer of course.

Bobbydean wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:56 pm Thanks for your response! What would be the class breakdown you suggested? Would Monk 20, Assassin 8, Fighter 2 be an allowed build given that there's a rule about having 3 levels in all classes before 20? If not, then are you suggesting Monk 18, Assassing 8, Fighter 4?

Oh right I forget you said you wanted at-least 20 monk. Hmmm, i'm unsure then. At that point you might just be looking at 20 monk 10 assassin.

Agree with Theodore. I will list a few high level build options and maybe if you can narrow down what fits your desires we can further detail out how to build it...

M25/SD5 - Standard high DEX stealth Monk. Pro's include HiPS, Epic Dodge alongside solid AC making defense very good Monk saves and SR help a bit too. High Monk levels mean grabbing Ki Step is a useful. Con's are lowish damage (definitely must use fists, no PTWF). Damage can be mitigated a bit by grabbing Fiery Fists since your stunning fists are not very useful (outside Ki Step). With 16 WIS (13+3 item) the duration per use will be ~13 rounds and will each use 2 uses of Stunning Fist so you only get about 12 minutes of that bonus d6 damage.

M11/A9/R10 - Standard PTWF Kama Monk for BG. Get's 15 APR, 16 with Haste so when hasted actually gets a 6th sneak attack out of HiPS which is pretty huge since you have 10d6 sneak damage (average ~210 sneak damage in first flurry when hasted). This one generally misses out on epic dodge because your R10 feat needs to be crippling strike so you can grab Epic Precision. Quite a bit more offense than the M/SD build above, but at the expense of quite a bit of your defense. Still HiPS obviously solves a lot of defensive issues when used appropriately.

M21/A9 - Somewhere in between the above two builds. Can either go PTWF for more death attacks or fists for more base damage. Interestingly you can either build this as a DEX build (but still can't get epic dodge of course) for PTWF or if going fists you can focus on WIS which will allow you to get Blazing Aura so you have your fist damage and your death attack damage. You basically just have to determine how much you want to focus on the stealth aspect vs. the damage aspect.

R11/M6/SD3/WD10 - WD is fun from an RP standpoint, but make no mistake this is a relatively weak build... Low sneak attack dice mean damage isn't enough to take out even caster mobs in one flurry. However, 6x skill focuses on a stealth build mean you are a skill master in several categories. Obviously this is a bit less of a monk than a rogue with monk training.

I fully understand you want more monk levels, but figured I would include a couple with less for comparison. Cheers.

Nice, thanks for the suggestions! Will try to narrow it down and see where it takes us.

Keep it simple. Monk/SD (dex based) 4 or Monk Assassin (wis based)

chad878262 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:35 pm Agree with Theodore. I will list a few high level build options and maybe if you can narrow down what fits your desires we can further detail out how to build it...

M25/SD5 - Standard high DEX stealth Monk. Pro's include HiPS, Epic Dodge alongside solid AC making defense very good Monk saves and SR help a bit too. High Monk levels mean grabbing Ki Step is a useful. Con's are lowish damage (definitely must use fists, no PTWF). Damage can be mitigated a bit by grabbing Fiery Fists since your stunning fists are not very useful (outside Ki Step). With 16 WIS (13+3 item) the duration per use will be ~13 rounds and will each use 2 uses of Stunning Fist so you only get about 12 minutes of that bonus d6 damage.

M11/A9/R10 - Standard PTWF Kama Monk for BG. Get's 15 APR, 16 with Haste so when hasted actually gets a 6th sneak attack out of HiPS which is pretty huge since you have 10d6 sneak damage (average ~210 sneak damage in first flurry when hasted). This one generally misses out on epic dodge because your R10 feat needs to be crippling strike so you can grab Epic Precision. Quite a bit more offense than the M/SD build above, but at the expense of quite a bit of your defense. Still HiPS obviously solves a lot of defensive issues when used appropriately.

M21/A9 - Somewhere in between the above two builds. Can either go PTWF for more death attacks or fists for more base damage. Interestingly you can either build this as a DEX build (but still can't get epic dodge of course) for PTWF or if going fists you can focus on WIS which will allow you to get Blazing Aura so you have your fist damage and your death attack damage. You basically just have to determine how much you want to focus on the stealth aspect vs. the damage aspect.

R11/M6/SD3/WD10 - WD is fun from an RP standpoint, but make no mistake this is a relatively weak build... Low sneak attack dice mean damage isn't enough to take out even caster mobs in one flurry. However, 6x skill focuses on a stealth build mean you are a skill master in several categories. Obviously this is a bit less of a monk than a rogue with monk training.

I fully understand you want more monk levels, but figured I would include a couple with less for comparison. Cheers.

Good stuff. Everyone has provided good suggestions. So with your options above, I think we can narrow it down some:

1. m11/a9/r10 is probably out as I don't really like dual wield and have no desire to become a 1million attach per round tornado of destruction. I'd rather focus more on high AC, dodging, and stealth (granted I still want to be competent at combat).

2. With M21/A9, what is the key benefit here of high wisdom (other than blazing aura, and high wis AC)? Would a build like this that is dex based but that uses fists only be a missed opportunity because there's many better options?

3. Is Epic dodge really that good? It gets mentioned a lot, so just wondering if it is really the amazing ultimate goal that it is seeming to be hyped as.

4. Are the later monk skills like Empty Body and Perfect Self worth it? Or would my character concept be better served by taking Assasin/Rogue/SD levels instead.

5. I like the idea of M25/SD5, however then I'm missing out on a LOT of "infiltration/recon" skills right? Given my stealth/agent/recon/infiltration concept, I'd hate to have a char concept of getting into and out of places and "acquiring" items, and then get stuck every time I hit a locked door, locked chest, or trap if I go with this build. Also missing out on Use Magical Device is a bit of a bummer. Thoughts on why/why not that would be a problem for my concept?

I guess it would be nice to know how various things stack up against each other. Like on a scale of 1 to 10 how would you rate in terms of utility for your character having access to each of the following (I know they can't all be had in same character, just trying to understand relative utility of the give/take pros/cons)

- High Lockpick Skill
- High Disable Device Skill
- High Use Magical Device Skill
- Epic Dodge
- Assassin Spells
- HIPS
- Empty Body
- Perfect Self
- High Sneak Attack / Death Attack

I know that's a lot of questions. Thanks for any responses!

DM Ink wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:27 pm Keep it simple. Monk/SD (dex based) 4 or Monk Assassin (wis based)

Thanks for the response. This sounds good at first, but what about key skills. My character concept includes infiltrating/spying/scouting and getting into and out of secure places. With Monk/SD only, aren't I missing a lot of key skills for infiltration? especially open lock and disable device?

Bobbydean wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:33 am 1. m11/a9/r10 is probably out as I don't really like dual wield and have no desire to become a 1million attach per round tornado of destruction. I'd rather focus more on high AC, dodging, and stealth (granted I still want to be competent at combat).

- Fair enough, but just make note that you can't have it all. You requested to be an 'infiltrator' and responded to Ink that M25/SD5 split misses out on some class skills you want. If you want lots of skill points, this is one way to ensure you have them. It is not just about combat, it is about access to the most skills you want as well as more skill points to invest in them.

Bobbydean wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:33 am 2. With M21/A9, what is the key benefit here of high wisdom (other than blazing aura, and high wis AC)? Would a build like this that is dex based but that uses fists only be a missed opportunity because there's many better options?

- With high WIS you can use Stunning Fist with a higher DC which in turn triggers more of that 5d6 sneak dice. You said you don't want to be a TWF Kama user, well the way sneak dice work you need to have as many APR as possible since only the first flurry triggers sneak attacks out of Stealth. If going fists things like blinding strike (feat, but without rogue levels DC won't be great), Feint (on the surface it is not all that effective in epics) and stunning fist will help you proc sneak damage more often. Also note that Will saves are far more important than Reflex saves, especially when you have Improved Evasion. Finally, as an infiltrator I assume you also need to have high Listen and Spot, so max DEX vs. max WIS is also a question of which skills you want to really aim to maximize.

Bobbydean wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:33 am 3. Is Epic dodge really that good? It gets mentioned a lot, so just wondering if it is really the amazing ultimate goal that it is seeming to be hyped as.

- As far as defensive feats go there are very few that compare to Epic Dodge. It is to your AC what Expose Weakness is to your AB. The first attack from an enemy every round misses, even if it is a crit... This is also the attack made at the enemies highest Attack Bonus... The second attack is made at -5 so you could say it is kinda like +5 AC, except better because even a natural 20 misses.

Bobbydean wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:33 am 4. Are the later monk skills like Empty Body and Perfect Self worth it? Or would my character concept be better served by taking Assasin/Rogue/SD levels instead.

- It depends what your going for. Monk 30 is a quite effective, strong build and there are plenty of Monk 20 builds that are also strong (M20/Divine Champion 10 for example). That said, M11 is a popular stopping point because it specifically gains an extra APR for Greater FoB. M13 opens up the option to grab Blazing Aura. A lot depends on if you are going for Fists or dual Kama's. Fists are going to be better when focused on WIS and getting 20 Monk levels for Intuitive Attack. DEX is better if going dual wielding with as many sneak dice as possible. Empty Body is quite good, giving you 2-3 minutes twice per day of displacement is nothing to sneeze at. Perfect Self is also not bad, though note that DR10/- magic is bypassed by any +1 weapon and immunity to mind affecting is effectively equivalent of a level 1 spell that is available as use per day on items, wands, scrolls or whatever with a decent duration at very little cost.

Bobbydean wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:33 am 5. I like the idea of M25/SD5, however then I'm missing out on a LOT of "infiltration/recon" skills right? Given my stealth/agent/recon/infiltration concept, I'd hate to have a char concept of getting into and out of places and "acquiring" items, and then get stuck every time I hit a locked door, locked chest, or trap if I go with this build. Also missing out on Use Magical Device is a bit of a bummer. Thoughts on why/why not that would be a problem for my concept?

Shadow Dancer gets *most* of what you want as class skills, and with Able Learner feat you can at least get some points in everything you want including cross-class skills. Disable Traps is a tough one because without Rogue or Divine Seeker or Phantom levels the max trap you can disarm is DC20 making it kinda useless. However, with Search you can still SEE the trap and avoid it, right? Open Locks you can put a point or two in as a cross-class skill and handle most locks. Its kinda pointless to have more than ~10 in Open Locks unless you are going to max it anyway.

The far larger issue with M25/SD5 is the lack of skill points to invest. You probably want max DEX or WIS as an infiltrator (either to focus on stealth or eavesdropping/listen), but you also do need some STR, but INT is needed for more skill points, meaning your only 'dump' stat is Charisma (which you may also want if your a smooth talking/disguising monk infiltrator type). You have to make concessions somewhere, so getting 4 SP per level when you want to max like 5-6 skills and you need to have some points in a few others is going to be impossible. This is solved only be reducing your investment in Monk in favor of getting levels in Rogue (8 SP per level FTW). By alternating levels you can minimize reliance on needing Able Learner feat, but with M25/SD5 it won't matter, you simply will have to give up on certain skills.

Bobbydean wrote: ↑Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:49 am I guess it would be nice to know how various things stack up against each other. Like on a scale of 1 to 10 how would you rate in terms of utility for your character having access to each of the following (I know they can't all be had in same character, just trying to understand relative utility of the give/take pros/cons)

Chad responses - Note these are MY rankings, but may not be YOUR rankings. This is really a tough question to quantify as what is important to me may not align with what is important for you. To level set, all of my PC's I played during my 5 years or so on the server were built specifically because I require the PC to be mechanically viable, capable of doing loads of cool RP stuff in DM events and have an RP concept I personally was able to buy in to and maintain consistently when I played them. Based on this, I required my builds to be flexible on how I did level splits so I could fit the RP concept while maximizing mechanical strength.

- High Lockpick Skill - 1. On almost all of my characters with lockpick they invested 1-10 points in this skill. For DEX based characters it was 1 point because that was more than enough to pick 95% of the locks on the server and the other 5 would have required maxing the skills plus having gear dedicated to boosting it. When there is so little middle ground there is little reason to do more than the minimum investment or maximum investment.
- High Disable Device Skill - 1 (if no rogue leves), 10 (with rogue levels) - If I have investment in rogue levels, I will max this skill. If I don't, I will leave at zero.
- High Use Magical Device Skill - 5. 11 is enough if you want to use wands and gear, otherwise, max or near max depending on CHA if you want to use 9th level scrolls.
- Epic Dodge - If you qualify for it with your build 10, if you don't zero... In other words, if you qualify for it, it's a no brainer.
- Assassin Spells - 5. Each level has something useful for you... Cats Grace for more AC, possibly AB as well as small bonus to stealth, Ghostly visage, Invisibility, C&C, Improved Invisibility.... All good stuff. If going for Assassin I would definitely also go for 14 INT minimum.
- HIPS - 10. A stealth build without HiPS is fine for RP, but mechanically just no. (unless going for Rogue 21+ to use the HitS mechanic)
- Empty Body - 3. If already going for high level monk it is a great bonus, but it is not a REASON to go for high level Monk. If Ranger 21 is the goal for Bane of Enemies and free PTWF, the Monk equivalent will be either at M11 (GFoB) or 13 (Diamond Soul to access Blazing Aura). This is essentially a couple of free casts of displacement per day with a decent duration. Displacement is available as use / day on items as well as wands, potions, etc.
- Perfect Self - 1. See above, but even cheaper/easier to replicate.
- High Sneak Attack / Death Attack 10 if DEX based/PTWF, 4 if WIS based/Fists. Basically I would either go for M20 (needed for intuitive attack) WIS based OR M3-11 DEX based with PTWF and as many sneak dice as possible.

Basically you have to weigh how important Monk 20 is to you vs. how important it is for you to have loads of skills. Monks only get 4 skill points per level so when you are considering things like hide, move silently, listen, spot, bluff, tumble, UMD, search, open lock, disable device, set trap(maybe), and any potential others you envision (escape artist? disguise?) you start to see that you simply won't have enough skill points. Going heavy rogue with a dip in monk or going with M11/R10/A9 split is one way to find a middle ground, but if that is not matching up with the concept you want you have to consider what is most important to YOU, not me or anyone else. What do YOU find enjoyable. If mechanical/solo play do not interest you in the slightest than build strength will be far less important. However, if you find yourself solo often you will need to consider how to reconcile a decent build that also fits as closely as possible to your RP concept.

Hopefully this helps start you off, but I think to some extent you have to step back from thinking about level splits and instead focus on key skills you want and how you envision the character overall. Once you have that you can start considering what classes and levels are necessary to realize that vision.

I know nothing of rogues and monks... but what about a 20/5/5 Monk/SD/TA?

It gets him all the skills he wants (not optimum for skill points since no rogue) and traps he is screwed on (no rogue again) but he gets a lot more "stuff" and KD immunity is nice and a damage shield, HiPS, springboard for CC... Granted the three classes have several overlaps like improved knockdown and improved evasion, damage shield etc. But he would also get 5 levels of high BAB and 6 SP/level with TA. Or look at Guild Thief. Get some nice discounts.

Ghost faced killer would be a great addition for mobility (invisibility) BAB and get the skills he wants with a 4 SP/Level and High BAB. 20/3/7.



Best bet is to do 20Monk/3 Rogue/ 3 SD and something else for 4 levels even if it is monk (for an increase to damage per hit 3d8 instead of 2d10) so you can get the skills and perform the role you are looking for.

Again nothing power gamer worthy, but there are ways to get the skills and add some extra flavor. I am just a simple mage in game. I dont have a single non caster in my roles, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Chad and the others are far far more smarter than I in these matters.

chad#####,

Thanks for the VERY comprehensive response. It's helping a lot to orient me to the NWN2 ruleset as well as some mechanics that seem unique to BG or Kaedrin's stuff. Really appreciate you taking the time to fully answer each question. Each time you post, I get a lot closer to knowing what I want my build to be. Based on all of your feedback, it looks like the best options are some combination of Monk, SD, and Rogue. Thinking probably high dex build with:

Monk25/SD5
Monk20/SD5/R5 - to get enough skills to achieve the things you outlined along with Epic Dodge

With a unarmed strike based, high dex, char with a combo of Monk,Rogue, Shadow Dancer are there any level combinations you would recommend in order to not miss out on a very useful skill/feat?

Thanks!