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Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:00 pm
by Orfeas
I am planning for a Warlock character and would much appreciate any suggestions/feedback as I am quite new to this. I used an existing blaster build as a baseline template and adapted it to fit my thoughts both mechanically and for RP.
The latest version of this can be found at:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?321054
Idea is to have maxed stealth skills, enough spellcraft for master, effectively maxed umd (10-1+4 (13) early for gear, and then 28-1+4 [+2 from cha pot/wand] (33) for all scrolls)
Other than questions regarding whether I missed anything obvious (feat-wise for example) my thoughts are on how to distribute conc/tumble/umd points as there are various options:
-current version with maxed umd (effective 33), 10 tumble and rest into conc (15)
-alternate with maxed conc, 13 umd and 10 tumble
-alternate with 30 tumble, 13 umd and rest in conc (15)
-other permutations of these skills (for example minimising conc and placing remaining points into umd for ~25 umd)
Any feedback is always welcome,
The only hard limitation I have placed (for now), is that I will not be using any undead/demon summoning/transformation invocations/dancer abilities, as we are not in the underdark and we are trying, as much as our little heart is capable of, not to be evil!
Thanks!
EDIT: using
http://nwn2db.com/builder.php?id=321477 now instead
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:58 pm
by qwertyh88
Not comment on the build -- but your low str means you won't be able to carry anything meaniningful
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:45 pm
by Steve
Hello!
With a once per round Eldritch Blast of 30d6 at Level 30, that’s an average of 90 dmg per round (you’ll often see better, and a critical will make you smile). But it is low, in BGTSCC terms.
Because you have no investment in a Warlocks ability to control or stun an opponent, shall I assume your mode of attack is Blast at distance, hide, run a bit away, blast, hide, run on repeat until your foe(s) is dead? In my opinion, it is a slow arse process, and it is also a bit boring, the same old attack structure. But that’s me!
Another thing that unfortunately doesn’t have synergy is high Dex (except for better H/MS, which gear in the server can already get you sky high numbers). RTAs hit pretty often because they don’t have to beat a full opponents AC.
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:41 pm
by Orfeas
qwertyh88 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:58 pm
Not comment on the build -- but your low str means you won't be able to carry anything meaniningful
Hi Qwerty, yes that is why i tried my best not to go down to less than 10, and with a +2 item or bull was hoping to at least be able to get non armor sellables. I guess its a compromise anyone not investing in a str build must consider, something that can be partially rectified by going 18-19 dex and increasing it instead.
Steve wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:45 pm
Hello!
With a once per round Eldritch Blast of 30d6 at Level 30, that’s an average of 90 dmg per round (you’ll often see better, and a critical will make you smile). But it is low, in BGTSCC terms.
Because you have no investment in a Warlocks ability to control or stun an opponent, shall I assume your mode of attack is Blast at distance, hide, run a bit away, blast, hide, run on repeat until your foe(s) is dead? In my opinion, it is a slow arse process, and it is also a bit boring, the same old attack structure. But that’s me!
Another thing that unfortunately doesn’t have synergy is high Dex (except for better H/MS, which gear in the server can already get you sky high numbers). RTAs hit pretty often because they don’t have to beat a full opponents AC.
Hi Steve, thank you for your thoughts, I am at an impasse as I certainly agree with your comment but I tried to avoid making a DC-based build, I imagined that using the defensive invocations I would be able to stand my ground after softening enemies up at range, when I am not in a party. Thoughts on an alternative approach (vs dex for example) are always welcome, I just wanted to try build a reasonable no-charisma warlock (both in terms of RP and to try out an archer-like caster). In your mind, charisma-based ones are the way to go? If so then I would have to make a hard decision on whether i stick to my current ideas on how this character is to act vs their combat effectiveness.
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:23 pm
by Steve
I've played A BUNCH of Warlocks. Bard/Warlock, Monk/Warlock, CHA Warlock, EDM Warlock waddyacallit?!
Here is my ultimate sneak + melee Warlock build (I played it up to Level 21 and then once to 24...but it's potential is HIGH):
http://nwn2db.com/build/?120159
I'm also a yuuuuge fan of the Bard / Warlock / Stormsinger / Blackguard. If you want melee, this one using Hideous Blow is pretty darn fun.
In general, I round out a Melee-Lock to have about and average of 60 dmg with Hideous Blow, and then find other Classes/PrCs to allow for an average of 25-30 dmg on each other Attacks. If I can't get the EB dice up to my satisfaction, I add Sneak Attack dice in to compensate. And, trying for 21 BAB for 5 APR. That way I can usually count on 130 dmg per round, and, depending on the type of Build, I go for Noxious Blast CHA Lock or take Assassin and decent INT so that I can Death Attack as well.
For example, Monk 11 / Assassin 8 / Warlock 11 w/ Practised Invoker will get your toon 7d6 Eldritch Blast and 1 Greater Invocation (Vitriolic Blast to bypass SR).
And these are just my examples! *waits for Chad0923840923572309750239742309784 to come online*
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:59 pm
by Orfeas
I am trying to avoid making a melee Warlock as I have played a multitude of fighter/paladin builds lately and almost never a rogue or ranged nuker. With the comments of dex being of little use after capping the light armor bonus (of either +4 or +5 for mithral bp or chainmail, i would imagine) I am playing around with a more int-focused/skills build, still trying to avoid max cha cookie cutter divine shield luck of the dark one builds, I really want to roleplay a non charismatic Warlock:
http://nwn2db.com/builder.php?id=321088
It looks utterly hilarious to me spreading stats around but I can see some logic in it (maybe its the fact that its late at night).
On that note, how common are 0asf shields (couldn't find any in the vendor database or the AH), as that would be another reasonable alteration for more endurance.
EDIT: after reading more about Warlocks in this setting, and sticking to my idea about a CN below average charisma character, i will lower my priority for combat effectiveness and focus even more into the RP aspect
PS: if i am understanding this correctly, i get an extra 1d6 on blasts going w26/sd4 vs w27/sd3 due to how practiced invoker works? that seems very strange
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:44 pm
by chad878262
Steve wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:23 pmAnd these are just my examples! *waits for Chad0923840923572309750239742309784 to come online*
Hi there Steve
@Orfeas,
If going for a sneaky lock there is a reason DSM build that Steve posted is so popular. However, I recall chatting with you on Discord and you were not really interested in that (which is fine.)
The strongest blaster lock I have seen is from TeoDeathDealer and includes Wlk 27/DragonSlayer3. DEX on this build is like 14 or 16 (18/20 after Leaps and Bounds). CON is maxed and toughness/steadfast makes this build tanky AF. Fantastic Saves and metric ton of HP. No HiPS needed as you can just stand their blasting away... Plus you still have retributive invisibility or walk unseen which will work against most enemies.
Even if going for a Shadow Dancer variant I likely would go for max CON vs. putting points in DEX. As Scuda mentions hitting with RTA is not difficult and if you are mostly attacking out of HiPS it's even easier. Since HiPS is more defensive anyway you do not need to focus on maxing out stealth like you would for a sneak attack build.
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:55 pm
by Orfeas
chad878262 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:44 pm
Steve wrote: ↑Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:23 pmAnd these are just my examples! *waits for Chad0923840923572309750239742309784 to come online*
Hi there Steve
@Orfeas,
If going for a sneaky lock there is a reason DSM build that Steve posted is so popular. However, I recall chatting with you on Discord and you were not really interested in that (which is fine.)
The strongest blaster lock I have seen is from TeoDeathDealer and includes Wlk 27/DragonSlayer3. DEX on this build is like 14 or 16 (18/20 after Leaps and Bounds). CON is maxed and toughness/steadfast makes this build tanky AF. Fantastic Saves and metric ton of HP. No HiPS needed as you can just stand their blasting away... Plus you still have retributive invisibility or walk unseen which will work against most enemies.
Even if going for a Shadow Dancer variant I likely would go for max CON vs. putting points in DEX. As Scuda mentions hitting with RTA is not difficult and if you are mostly attacking out of HiPS it's even easier. Since HiPS is more defensive anyway you do not need to focus on maxing out stealth like you would for a sneak attack build.
Thank you for your helpful feedback, it makes a lot of sense and i'm happy I decided to avoid going high on dex. I will see what to do with sneak points later on as there isn't much to do/think about till lvl 17+ in that regard.
As I mentioned in my edit, am I correct to assume that going 4 shadow dancer (or dragonslayer for example) instead of 3 gives me an extra 1d6 damage due to the description of practiced invoker, if so it feels like a good idea to lose 1 dr at max lvl (6 vs 7) from 27 Warlock and gain the 1d6 right? In that case why do people go for 3 sd/ds in the builds? Is the description just incorrect and it actually just adds the levels themselves or is it purely for the +1dr at lvl 30?
PS: also, do rtas benefit from weapon to hit bonuses? i would imagine they do not but some posts online claim they do, which would influence if i go for a weapon with pure attribute bonuses or a +4 enhancement weapon.
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:21 am
by chad878262
Orfeas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:55 pm
As I mentioned in my edit, am I correct to assume that going 4 shadow dancer (or dragonslayer for example) instead of 3 gives me an extra 1d6 damage due to the description of practiced invoker, if so it feels like a good idea to lose 1 dr at max lvl (6 vs 7) from 27 Warlock and gain the 1d6 right? In that case why do people go for 3 sd/ds in the builds? Is the description just incorrect and it actually just adds the levels themselves or is it purely for the +1dr at lvl 30?
Regardless if you go Wlk 27/SD3 or Wlk 26/SD 4 you end up at Invoker level 30 (with practiced Invoker) and thus you have the same number of blast dice. thus the question becomes if you want what SD 4 gives you (weak AF summon shadow and completely useless shadow daze) or what Wlk 27 gives +1 DR as you mentioned. Personally I will take 1 extra DR over a shadow that I'll never summon and shadow daze ability with super low DC that I will never use.
Orfeas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:55 pm
PS: also, do rtas benefit from weapon to hit bonuses? i would imagine they do not but some posts online claim they do, which would influence if i go for a weapon with pure attribute bonuses or a +4 enhancement weapon.
Yes they do, but if you are holding that EB weapon and attack an enemy with deflect arrows you will never land an eldritch blast. When not holding a weapon your Eldritch Blast cannot be deflected by the feat, but when holding a weapon it gets treated like a projectile (and thus deflected). Yes it is a bug that deflect arrows would work on Eldritch Blast, but it is also a bug that a weapon EB would apply to your Eldritch Blast RTA.
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:56 am
by Orfeas
chad878262 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:21 am
Orfeas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:55 pm
As I mentioned in my edit, am I correct to assume that going 4 shadow dancer (or dragonslayer for example) instead of 3 gives me an extra 1d6 damage due to the description of practiced invoker, if so it feels like a good idea to lose 1 dr at max lvl (6 vs 7) from 27 Warlock and gain the 1d6 right? In that case why do people go for 3 sd/ds in the builds? Is the description just incorrect and it actually just adds the levels themselves or is it purely for the +1dr at lvl 30?
Regardless if you go Wlk 27/SD3 or Wlk 26/SD 4 you end up at Invoker level 30 (with practiced Invoker) and thus you have the same number of blast dice. thus the question becomes if you want what SD 4 gives you (weak AF summon shadow and completely useless shadow daze) or what Wlk 27 gives +1 DR as you mentioned. Personally I will take 1 extra DR over a shadow that I'll never summon and shadow daze ability with super low DC that I will never use.
Orfeas wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:55 pm
PS: also, do rtas benefit from weapon to hit bonuses? i would imagine they do not but some posts online claim they do, which would influence if i go for a weapon with pure attribute bonuses or a +4 enhancement weapon.
Yes they do, but if you are holding that EB weapon and attack an enemy with deflect arrows you will never land an eldritch blast. When not holding a weapon your Eldritch Blast cannot be deflected by the feat, but when holding a weapon it gets treated like a projectile (and thus deflected). Yes it is a bug that deflect arrows would work on Eldritch Blast, but it is also a bug that a weapon EB would apply to your Eldritch Blast RTA.
ok thank you, i was wondering whether these interactions were still in the game as right now im using a +1 weapon and whether i have it on or off sometimes i get +14 sometimes i get +13 on attacks which is confusing me greatly, should be easier to see with a +3/4 weapon
EDIT: trying with a +3 weapon (sickle) i do not get any bonuses to rta (tried all possible blast-shape-essence permutations) so maybe clarifying that somewhere may be also useful to mages using rta (unless again im missing something and only some weapons work (like only ranged weapons?)
regarding the invoker levels the feat clearly states:
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... ed_Invoker
For determining eldritch blast damage, you gain +2d6 damage if you are 4 or more caster levels below your hit dice or +1d6 damage if you are 2 or 3 caster levels below your hit dice.
so with your comment you are (unofficially) verifying that this statement in the wiki is not accurate? if so it may be worth updating for clarity to other interested readers.
thank you again for your feedback!
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:36 pm
by chad878262
The wiki is correct though I suppose the wording could be better. However, the important piece is that Practiced Invoker cannot increase your Invoker Level (or blast dice) above your actual level. So in the example in the wiki, W11/BG2 is only character level 13 so invoker level 13. However, Wlk11/BG4 is character level 15 and invoker level 15. By the same token, Wlk26/SD4 and Wlk27/SD3 are both character level 30 and thus the Invoker level is 30 with practiced invoker.
The only part that is inaccurate is the assumption that increasing invoker level by 2 or 3 will always increase blast dice by 1d6. Since Wlk gains blast dice on even levels, invoker level increase of 2 will always increase blast dice by 1d6, increase by 4 will always increase by 2d6, but increasing by 3 could increase by 1d6 OR 2d6. If you were character level 24 and Wlk 21 you would get 2d6 from Practiced Invoker (at invoker level 22 and 24), but if you were character level 25 and Wlk 22 you would only get 1d6 (invoker 24).
Note that I am not a developer so I can't confirm that this is how the practiced invoker feat is actually working, I can only state this is how it SHOULD work and based on the fact that no one has complained that it is working incorrectly I assume it is implemented and working as it should.
Make sense?
Re: Feedback on sneaky Warlock build
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:46 pm
by Orfeas
chad878262 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:36 pm
The wiki is correct though I suppose the wording could be better. However, the important piece is that Practiced Invoker cannot increase your Invoker Level (or blast dice) above your actual level. So in the example in the wiki, W11/BG2 is only character level 13 so invoker level 13. However, Wlk11/BG4 is character level 15 and invoker level 15. By the same token, Wlk26/SD4 and Wlk27/SD3 are both character level 30 and thus the Invoker level is 30 with practiced invoker.
The only part that is inaccurate is the assumption that increasing invoker level by 2 or 3 will always increase blast dice by 1d6. Since Wlk gains blast dice on even levels, invoker level increase of 2 will always increase blast dice by 1d6, increase by 4 will always increase by 2d6, but increasing by 3 could increase by 1d6 OR 2d6. If you were character level 24 and Wlk 21 you would get 2d6 from Practiced Invoker (at invoker level 22 and 24), but if you were character level 25 and Wlk 22 you would only get 1d6 (invoker 24).
Note that I am not a developer so I can't confirm that this is how the practiced invoker feat is actually working, I can only state this is how it SHOULD work and based on the fact that no one has complained that it is working incorrectly I assume it is implemented and working as it should.
Make sense?
Most certainly, I assumed it was just a technicality and a minor wording issue with trying to convey a complex concept succinctly in the wiki, cheers.