Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hey guys,

I was mulling over some Swashbuckler character concepts for my next character. I have some ideas set in place, but also a few dilemmas given the various things you can do with the class. So,

Mainly the "classic" Swashbuckler build would be 16 Swashbuckler/7 Weapon Master/7 Duelist. It is a good build obviously, but the question is whether or not WM is worth it. Compare it to other alternative, like 20 Swashbuckler/10 Duelist. You get +1d6 damage from Precise Strike, Deflect Arrows and 2 extra Haste uses with increased duration. Obviously the main thing is Wounding Critical from Swashbuckler + Slippery Mind and some other minor boons. Of course, it also frees up some feats which WM requires.

The thing here is that WM just increases Swashbuckler's dependency on Critical hits. Damage difference is certainly big, but then again Wounding Critical decreases CON so it also affect damage dealt, indirectly. And both also depend on applying Critical hits/no immunities.

Third option would maybe go with splash of Shadowdancer for which you already have all the feats, and keeping Swashbuckler at 14. Shadowdancer gives HiPS+Evasion, so split would go: 14 Swashbuckler/7 Weapon Master/6 Duelist/3 Shadowdancer. You lose 7th level of Duelist and Elaborate Parry which means -1 AC and free item slot, but gain HiPS for which you also have more than enough skills to at least use moderately.

What do you guys think, anyone played any of these builds?

AlfarinIcebreaker wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 12:26 pm Hey guys,

I was mulling over some Swashbuckler character concepts for my next character. I have some ideas set in place, but also a few dilemmas given the various things you can do with the class. So,

Mainly the "classic" Swashbuckler build would be 16 Swashbuckler/7 Weapon Master/7 Duelist. It is a good build obviously, but the question is whether or not WM is worth it. Compare it to other alternative, like 20 Swashbuckler/10 Duelist. You get +1d6 damage from Precise Strike, Deflect Arrows and 2 extra Haste uses with increased duration. Obviously the main thing is Wounding Critical from Swashbuckler + Slippery Mind and some other minor boons. Of course, it also frees up some feats which WM requires.

The thing here is that WM just increases Swashbuckler's dependency on Critical hits. Damage difference is certainly big, but then again Wounding Critical decreases CON so it also affect damage dealt, indirectly. And both also depend on applying Critical hits/no immunities.

Third option would maybe go with splash of Shadowdancer for which you already have all the feats, and keeping Swashbuckler at 14. Shadowdancer gives HiPS+Evasion, so split would go: 14 Swashbuckler/7 Weapon Master/6 Duelist/3 Shadowdancer. You lose 7th level of Duelist and Elaborate Parry which means -1 AC and free item slot, but gain HiPS for which you also have more than enough skills to at least use moderately.

What do you guys think, anyone played any of these builds?

I consider WM 7 to be a waste in this case.

Consider:
Rapiers have a range of 18-20 (10% to crit). With improved critical/keen, it goes to 15-20 (25%) to crit - in other words, a single feat/spell increases your chance to crit by 2.5x. Now, consider the difference between 12-20(40%) and 15-20 (25%). In this second scenario, for taking two entire class levels that could be spent elsewhere, you only increase your crit-chance by 1.6X. While it is still substantial, we have to consider what else you could gain by only going WM 5 (and thus increasing your 2X multiplier to 3X).

Swashbuckler15/shadowdancer3/weaponmaster5/duelist7: With this you obtain HiPS and Elaborate Parry and most importantly: UNCANNY DODGE
Swashbuckler15/rogue3/weaponmaster5/duelist7: With this, you gain 2d6 damage when flanking (and you already get +2 AB when flanking, so synergy!) and UMD (which as a pure melee, you definiely gonna need if you want to participate in DM events or high-epic areas.) and most importantly: UNCANNY DODGE
Swashbuckler18/weaponmaster5/duelist7: You get slippery mind and evasion, but rather wasteful.
Swashbuckler 15/weaponmaster 5/duelist 10: You get deflect arrows, 5x 10 rounds of haste, +1d6 damage while wielding a piercing light weapon.


Personally, I'm a proponent of the SD build as having Shadowdancing, 16 UMD and then some UMD+ items to boost that higher could get you the best of all worlds.

Myself, I'm currently levelling a swashbuckler 15/wizard 5/shadowdancer 3 / duelist 7 build.

The reason for getting SwB15 is that it gives you +1AC while duelling a creature, which is handy in bossfights, or if you got Shadowdancer and a ranged weapon and patience, you can lure groups of enemies to split up and engage them 1vs1, gaining a total of +4AC (3 swb dodge, 1 normal dodge) vs them.


Shadowdancer and stealth is very useful in controlling the battlefield and ensuring you only pick fights where you rule ( 1 vs 1 duels).





Also, I can't stress how important uncanny dodge is to a swash/du. This RCR I went from 16, and only got Uncanny Dodge at 18. Whenever I got Charmed, Held, Paralyzed or otherwise caught flat-footed, I lost like half my HP due to my AC being reduced to under 20 from 40. This is incredibly vital and life-saving. Even if you ignore HiPS and flanking and UMD, having Uncanny Dodge is worth FAR MORE than hitting crits 1.6X more often.

Your saves vs paralysis and charm and Hold person are horrible. Enemies love spamming those spells. Having Uncanny Dodge will be the only way you'll survive without mind protection.

With Uncanny Dodge, you can go from a squishy that dies the moment they got Held/charmed/paralyzed to the ultimate tank making dwarves cry by also turning on Parry Mode to have you full AC and then obtain a 50% evasion for all attacks that are at 44AB, with even more evasion for attacks below 44 AB at 5% per AB. Why? Because if you're charmed/held/paralyzed, you parry EVERY INCOMING ATTACK! We tested with snarfy, and despite his 10 attacks per round vs my mere 4 attacks at 22, I parried every single attack he had, because he paralyzed me.

I'd say at the end of the day, you should pick between
Swash15/wm5/du7/r3
Swash15/wm5/du7/sd3
Swash15/wm5/du7/cleric3 (with air domain)
swash15/wm5/du7/dwarven defender 3
swash15/wm5/du7/guild thief 3.

basically, any uncanny dodge dip you can think of.

Dwarven defender personally sounds hilarious.

If you are playing a very high INT character that can reach +8 modifier for that sweet double-dip for INT damage, going 14swashbuckler/8 duelist instead of 15/7 split nets you a blanket +1 AC instead of +1 AC against the current attacker, an extra usage of duelist haste as well.

I played SB/WM/Duelist a few years ago and yes it is worth it if that is what you want. AC is good, damage is good and the Weakening Critical gimmick when it works is fun *smirks at the Frost Giant King*

Hoihe, your numbers are a bit off. 18-20 is 15% crit rate, 15-20 is 30% and 12-20 is 45% crit rate. However, Ki Critical provides a FLAT +2 crit range, it does not double crit range. So with a rapier, Ki Critical and Keen you would actually be at 13-20 (which is 40%). Worth it or not is relative, but if you assume 6 APR it is the difference of ~2.4 crits (which then need to be confirmed) vs ~1.8 crits vs. 0.9 crits per round. I would say averaging 2.4 of your attacks vs. 1.8 is worth it, but that is in the eye of the beholder.

Like literally every weapon master build, the SB version is heavily reliant on UMD because fort/will saves are bad, if nothing else. Honestly it is one of those builds that can be a lot of fun in some areas, but in others it's relatively frustrating. The damage is somewhat addressed against crit immune thanks to epic precision, but it's imperfect. The mechanic it has is fun when it works, but it won't work everywhere.

I would say that SB19/SD3/D8 wouldn't be a bad build to go for ~20 DEX and ~24 INT (24/28 w/ items). You won't crit as often, but you get the wounding critical feature, Hide in Plain Sight always helps with defense on non-caster builds with poor saves too. And of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with SB20/D10, just like any such build (including SB/WM/D) just invest in as much +SAVES gear as you can.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 2:25 pm I played SB/WM/Duelist a few years ago and yes it is worth it if that is what you want. AC is good, damage is good and the Weakening Critical gimmick when it works is fun *smirks at the Frost Giant King*

Hoihe, your numbers are a bit off. 18-20 is 15% crit rate, 15-20 is 30% and 12-20 is 45% crit rate. However, Ki Critical provides a FLAT +2 crit range, it does not double crit range. So with a rapier, Ki Critical and Keen you would actually be at 13-20 (which is 40%). Worth it or not is relative, but if you assume 6 APR it is the difference of ~2.4 crits (which then need to be confirmed) vs ~1.8 crits vs. 0.9 crits per round. I would say averaging 2.4 of your attacks vs. 1.8 is worth it, but that is in the eye of the beholder.

Like literally every weapon master build, the SB version is heavily reliant on UMD because fort/will saves are bad, if nothing else. Honestly it is one of those builds that can be a lot of fun in some areas, but in others it's relatively frustrating. The damage is somewhat addressed against crit immune thanks to epic precision, but it's imperfect. The mechanic it has is fun when it works, but it won't work everywhere.

I would say that SB19/SD3/D8 wouldn't be a bad build to go for ~20 DEX and ~24 INT (24/28 w/ items). You won't crit as often, but you get the wounding critical feature, Hide in Plain Sight always helps with defense on non-caster builds with poor saves too. And of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with SB20/D10, just like any such build (including SB/WM/D) just invest in as much +SAVES gear as you can.

I'd say having Uncanny dodge more than worth trading 2.4 to 1.8 crits. It almost makes me wonder why Swashbuckler doesn't have UD at like lvl 19 or 20, like Barbarian has.

Without Uncanny Dodge, you lose a ton of AC if you get flat-footed.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 2:53 pm I'd say having Uncanny dodge more than worth trading 2.4 to 1.8 crits. It almost makes me wonder why Swashbuckler doesn't have UD at like lvl 19 or 20, like Barbarian has.

Without Uncanny Dodge, you lose a ton of AC if you get flat-footed.

In my experience this is irrelevant or very rarely relevant in PvE. Yuan-Ti Assassins are literally the only enemy I can think of where this would matter.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 2:57 pm

Hoihe wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 2:53 pm I'd say having Uncanny dodge more than worth trading 2.4 to 1.8 crits. It almost makes me wonder why Swashbuckler doesn't have UD at like lvl 19 or 20, like Barbarian has.

Without Uncanny Dodge, you lose a ton of AC if you get flat-footed.

In my experience this is irrelevant or very rarely relevant in PvE. Yuan-Ti Assassins are literally the only enemy I can think of where this would matter.

It's about Charm/Hold/paralysis effects. They're very common, and have personally felt the difference between having Uncanny vs not-having it - at lvl 18, getting hit by those spells led to me being oblirated by mobs from AC-loss, while at lvl 19, where I got Uncanny, I had no issue waiting out the 1 minute of being flatfooted.

that's a fair point Hoihe... I generally find a way to apply Protection from Evil for those situations.

There is an cloth +4 with uncanny dodge feat....Get it instead. Problem solved on Uncanny dodge. Everyone Happy..

By the way, does anyone know if Combat Insight applies even against critical immunity?

IIRC Combat Insight just makes INT apply to damage instead of STR and is not discounted by crit immune enemies at all.

Insightful Strike (SB5) will not apply against crit immune, but with Epic Precision the full amount applies (it is not halved like sneak dice)

It has been a while since I played one, but I *think* this is how the different INT to damage abilities work.

qwertyh88 wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 8:41 pm There is an cloth +4 with uncanny dodge feat....Get it instead. Problem solved on Uncanny dodge. Everyone Happy..

Uncanny dodge from items does not work. It was tested before, and the player was refunded for "false NPC advertising." so to say.

It should be reworked >.>.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:21 pm IIRC Combat Insight just makes INT apply to damage instead of STR and is not discounted by crit immune enemies at all.

Insightful Strike (SB5) will not apply against crit immune, but with Epic Precision the full amount applies (it is not halved like sneak dice)

It has been a while since I played one, but I *think* this is how the different INT to damage abilities work.

If what you say is true, then you will have earned my adoration for this good news.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:37 pm If what you say is true, then you will have earned my adoration for this good news.

I don't already have it?

I suppose I could ask Zanniej or Miasmata to grant my in game qc access to test it out, would not be too difficult to figure out. Maybe I will check in with the admins and see if they are ok with it.

Combat Insight is not mitigated by Crit Immunity.

Hoihe wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:37 pm

qwertyh88 wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 8:41 pm There is an cloth +4 with uncanny dodge feat....Get it instead. Problem solved on Uncanny dodge. Everyone Happy..

Uncanny dodge from items does not work. It was tested before, and the player was refunded for "false NPC advertising." so to say.

It should be reworked >.>.

Hmm..I guess I'll have to demand a refund with the DMs then....darn