Build Discussion: 30 Crusader vs. 16 Crusader/4 Figther/10 DC

[realayer]

Just some thought about the crusader kit and in general about 2-hander holy warrior concept without many buffing before fighting, would a combination of 16 crusader + 4 Fight + 10 DC be better than 30 crusader straight?

Here are the pros and cons on paper:
Pros
5 more bonus feats (from DC and fighter minus 3 bonus from pally epic levels)
higher saves from DC
Divine Wrath (5 min CD) and Holy Sword (10 min CD) if used alternatively should only have only 2-4 min downtime in between

Cons
loss of 2 divine dmg from Crusader Strike (if 16 wis)
minus 4 AC from Weapon Defense
loss of Epic Weapon Focus (should be able to recover from one of the bonus feats from DC/Fighter)
loss of permanent Holy Sword (-5dmg, 5ab, 2d6 divine dmg against evil) should be able to cover by the alternate use of DW and HS
only 16 lvl smite

Any critique would be appreciated!

[Steve]

The near-permanent Holy Sword + EDM going Two Handed with innate Shield defense is a perfect combo, if you ask me.

The biggest downside of Crusader is that Holy Sword cooldown doesn’t scale well through levels. That should be changed, and it was requested in the past, and then the Crusader would be much more fun to Level.

Crusader doesn’t play well unless full commitment to 30. I think you’d get much more out of a Fighter 12 / DC 10 / Paladin 4 / Anointed Knight 4.

[realayer]

The biggest downside of Crusader is that Holy Sword cooldown doesn’t scale well through levels. That should be changed, and it was requested in the past, and then the Crusader would be much more fun to Level.

Totally agree with you. Playing crusader is so boring, just hack, hack, and hack. Scaling the holy sword CD through level should be more fun and made it more open to multiclassing.

[Valefort]

Don't be so obsessed with the easiest thing

Crusader 17/ AK 3/ DC 10 is better then crusader 16/fighter 4/ DC 10 imo, Crusader 17 gets +1 AC AK gets tumble (as well as spellcraft but saves aren't really an issue here).

http://nwn2db.com/build/?323053 is very respectable imo and you've got feats to use instead of just staring at the slaughter.

[qwertyh88]

Another good version would be to go 14 Crusader/10DC/3AK/3MaR -
Gets challenges & get that shield +1 for the times when AC is more important that wielding 2 handed. Also very nice for that TS that gives Monkey Grip.

[realayer]

Don't be so obsessed with the easiest thing

Crusader 17/ AK 3/ DC 10 is better then crusader 16/fighter 4/ DC 10 imo, Crusader 17 gets +1 AC AK gets tumble (as well as spellcraft but saves aren't really an issue here).

http://nwn2db.com/build/?323053 is very respectable imo and you've got feats to use instead of just staring at the slaughter.

Wait! Crusader levels in wiki always make people confuse with the true level one needed to access crusader's perks or bonus...
Going crusader 17 means that paladin 1 + crusader 16, which means that the crusader will not have access to that extra 1 AC...
To access that 1 extra AC, one needs to have crusader 17 + paladin 1, a total of 18 paladin levels. That means one needs to sacrifice DC levels to fits in AK levels; or to come up with other combinations. Simply put, the level progress of crusader does not work really well with dipping in other classes in a build.
In this case... perhaps a combination of 18 crusader + 5 DC + 3 AK + 4 fighter would be better?

Your build also reminds me how investing in skills will help a build tremendously, tremble should be able to cover the AC loss by going just crusader 18, plus the extra save against spell from spellcraft.

The build also goes full STR but would it be better than going EDM? A split of STR and CHA would no doubt have less AB and thus less effective of IPA... but the extra damage from CHA bonus is hard to resist.

[realayer]

Another good version would be to go 14 Crusader/10DC/3AK/3MaR -
Gets challenges & get that shield +1 for the times when AC is more important that wielding 2 handed. Also very nice for that TS that gives Monkey Grip.

Crusader will lose the AC bonus from wielding 2-hander if s/he carries a shield. I think crusader does not work well with a class that focuses on shields. Also 14 crusader does not have access to SLA Holy Sword with the reason I stated above.

[Valefort]

Don't be so obsessed with the easiest thing

Crusader 17/ AK 3/ DC 10 is better then crusader 16/fighter 4/ DC 10 imo, Crusader 17 gets +1 AC AK gets tumble (as well as spellcraft but saves aren't really an issue here).

http://nwn2db.com/build/?323053 is very respectable imo and you've got feats to use instead of just staring at the slaughter.

Wait! Crusader levels in wiki always make people confuse with the true level one needed to access crusader's perks or bonus...
Going crusader 17 means that paladin 1 + crusader 16, which means that the crusader will not have access to that extra 1 AC...
To access that 1 extra AC, one needs to have crusader 17 + paladin 1, a total of 18 paladin levels. That means one needs to sacrifice DC levels to fits in AK levels; or to come up with other combinations. Simply put, the level progress of crusader does not work really well with dipping in other classes in a build.
In this case... perhaps a combination of 18 crusader + 5 DC + 3 AK + 4 fighter would be better?

Your build also reminds me how investing in skills will help a build tremendously, tremble should be able to cover the AC loss by going just crusader 18, plus the extra save against spell from spellcraft.

The build also goes full STR but would it be better than going EDM? A split of STR and CHA would no doubt have less AB and thus less effective of IPA... but the extra damage from CHA bonus is hard to resist.

You're right ! I forgot this, going with Pal 15/ AK 5/ DC 10 isn't bad though, the -1AC is not too bad !

[Theodore01]

Pal 15/ MaA 5/ DC 10

[RedLancer]

Fighter will give you a superior two-handed PC. If you really want Paladin levels (for Divine Might and Shield), just take 5 (4 Crusader), then look at Fighter/Divine Champ/Anointed Knight.

Honestly, a 26 Divinate / 4 Anointed Knight would be a great alternative. Your auto-extended spells would let you mimic the "no cooldown" Crusader Holy Sword, plus you'd retain access to the rest of the potent Paladin spellbook. You can shed Divinate levels in favor of other classes to the extent you're comfortable with getting dispelled, but if you're only focused on the weapon buffs, it's an easy trade.

[Theodore01]

the beauty of crusader is no buffing at all

[RedLancer]

Holy Sword is a buff. Divine Might and Shield are buffs. The scrolls or wands people will recommend you use to have survivability in epic areas are buffs.

[realayer]

Honestly, a 26 Divinate / 4 Anointed Knight would be a great alternative. Your auto-extended spells would let you mimic the "no cooldown" Crusader Holy Sword, plus you'd retain access to the rest of the potent Paladin spellbook. You can shed Divinate levels in favor of other classes to the extent you're comfortable with getting dispelled, but if you're only focused on the weapon buffs, it's an easy trade.

Agreed. I am playing both a crusader and a divinate. Mechanically speaking, the divinate is superior to crusader when fully buffed. Even my divinate is lower level than my crusader, he has higher AB and AC, more str and cha, as well as other goodies from his spellbook.

In responding to Steve's suggestion of having a better progress of SLA Holy Sword. I am thinking whether extending the duration of the feat would be an easier and better alternative since it does not require making extra feats to represent the progression.

Considering this... a 29 crusader (28 crusader + 1 pally) has a duration of 2.8 min, and once s/he hit 30, boom, s/he has permanent Holy Sword. The progression seems so uneven. I suggest doubling the duration to 12 sec per crusader level - at 29 level, a crusader will have 5.6min duration and downtime of around 3min vis-a-vis 2.8min duration and 7min downtime. The progress will be more logical. Divinate already has access to auto-extend, so double duration is not something out of the blue. And in order to have a longer duration of Holy Sword, one has to invest in crusader level, so it won't be just a dip for some builds.

[Kiran]

A key thing to note is:

If you are already playing a Crusader of any kind, you have chosen to play a worse paladin for the sake of not buffing yourself, which makes sense and can be useful for DM events where buffs tend to run out as the event goes on and you can't rest.

On the plus side, if you have a cleric, wizard or druid with you and they buff you, you become something utterly disgusting and very much feared if you build your Crusader correctly. With divine shield, you can easily reach high 60's in AC, and as a full great smiter with keen and a Falchion, you can do some disgusting things when you crit with a smite on anything evilesque (Except undead of course)

Will you ever be the king of a tournament? No.... except if you are lucky and get to fight only evil people... But is that the purpose of a paladin? To be a duel powerhouse like Barbarians and such builds?

In the end, if you are a paladin and have a lot of levels in it, you have already chosen a class that is somewhat weaker than others, but they have a great roleplay flavour and there is literally no plot you cant somehow become involved in.

Just don't expect to be as powerful as some other classes is all.

[Valefort]

It would be very weird if a Crusader with permanent bonuses was equal to a buffed Divinate. The main benefit of Crusader has never been the permanent Holy Sword but the AC bonus combined with the free weapon focus feats : you get to be in the frontline without using a shield.

The benefit of Holy Sword is +1+2d6 damage against evil, which average to +8 damage (ok and +1 AB). This is obviously very nice but not vital at all when you already deal 40 damage per hit... it's the cherry on top, as without the AC bonus your crusader wouldn't last very long. The +2 AC and permanent holy sword are placed on the last 3 levels to offer bonuses comparable to a 3 level dip in some other class.