Improve trap potency
Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:11 pm
Hello again. I'm here with another suggestion for QoL and efficacy of traps.
I would like to begin by addressing a couple points brought up in my previous suggestion regarding the stacking of traps:
As brought up by Blackman D, there is a clear lack of utility for anything aside from Epic Traps, due primarily to damage. However, he also notes that increasing the damage would penalize low HP builds that run through dungeons without a rogue, while pointing out that the current paradigm allows for most players to ignore traps regardless.
It is my inclination to suggest that this dual-standard effectively relegates traps to a mechanic that, outside traps with genuinely high damage and DCs (IE Epic), are effectively a poor choice of skill-points, weight, and time - in addition to being heavily save and preparation dependent.
However, assuming the damage and effects from the NWN2 wikia are correct, the damage by all rights should be adequate (In all but one case, discussed below). Those traps that deal lower damage tend to be accompanied by an effect, while those that focus on damage can hit on-par with upper-tier spells. This is honestly fine, but the area that I feel traps are severely penalized is in their DCs once set.
Using the arguably more useful Frost Trap as an example, we see that the standard variants have a Fort Save DC of 12, 13, 14, and 15 - but the Epic variety suddenly spikes to a DC 30 fort save (Ignoring the damage jump from 8d4 to 40d4, since its the paralysis that matters). Under the current server paradigm, where saves for both PCs and monsters are often quite high, a DC 15 fort-save is effectively trivial for most character and (from what I have heard) negligible for monsters. Even without evasion or similar abilities, saving results in half damage and avoiding the status effect, becoming effectively forgettable by anyone prepared to take on dungeon mobs that deal substantially more.
The Spike Trap is slightly more insulting - it is a flat DC 15 reflex save regardless of strength, and has the only trap damage that seems reasonable to adjust: stepping from 2d6, 3d6, to 5d6 in Minor through Strong, followed by 25d6 at Deadly (with no Epic variant), it could probably benefit from a more consistant damage curve as it improves, in addition to some actual variation in the DC.
As it stands, each of the nw_t1_*.nss and X2_T1_*.nss scripts appear to have a flat DC associated with them. The simple and easy solution would be to take a look at the general trends once epic traps are considered, and even the DCs out across the spread, to take into account the expected saves of PCs at those levels.
A more dynamic means of addressing it would be to increase the DC of the traps by some proportion of how much better the trapper did on the Set-Trap roll than its Set-Trap DC (such as +1 save DC/5 points over the set DC). This idea was actually mentioned in a previous thread, but was at the time referenced back to the wikia. Unfortunately, I have not yet identified which script actually handles the setting of traps, to examine how to extract that information. If anyone has a suggestion of where to look, I would happily poke into it to see if the variables can be linked.
This would, in turn, mean that traps are not more lethal, but would have a higher probability of inflicting their full damage and effects on a server where saves are, effectively, inflated across the board. Likewise, it would mean that a master trapper could make even relatively basic traps have some utility if monsters and PCs become less likely to "Save and take no damage" or "Fail and take half damage". Obviously, any sort of immunities would still function - as they rightly should.
As a disclaimer, I have experience only with sub-epic content so far. Even so, outside of level 1, no trap has been a life-threatening concern unless accompanied by either 1) a spawn of monsters that take advantage of it, or 2) jumping to a region well outside level band (which basically means being carried). My primary use for traps is choke-points in dungeons or securing areas against spawns during dungeon RP or interruptible actions. - at which they fail predictably, but functions at least as a proximity warning.
TL/DR: This suggestion is about increasing the DCs of various traps to account for server power-level. I only suggest increasing damage on Average/Strong Spike traps due to their clear anomaly.
I would be interested to hear the thoughts and considerations of others on this topic.
Cheers,
~Kit
I would like to begin by addressing a couple points brought up in my previous suggestion regarding the stacking of traps:
Blackman D wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:12 pm well having had a trapper all this time i can tell you that for pve anything under epic is kinda worthless to use because of the sheer amount of hp vs damage that is done and pvp wise the damage isnt what you are really after but rather the secondaries and in that case there are only a few traps that are worth using in pvp
Blackman D wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:26 pm nah, damage values of traps aren't gonna get touched
you have to remember traps are used on both sides, players and environment, increase the amount of damage traps do and you are also increasing how much damage people to run into traps or who set them off with their face are also taking
all you would be doing is increasing the number of traps that can one shot low hp builds that fail the saves
you would be increasing the value of rogue party members sure, but no one has every cared about the rogue taking the time to get rid of a trap... even when they are in the party
As brought up by Blackman D, there is a clear lack of utility for anything aside from Epic Traps, due primarily to damage. However, he also notes that increasing the damage would penalize low HP builds that run through dungeons without a rogue, while pointing out that the current paradigm allows for most players to ignore traps regardless.
It is my inclination to suggest that this dual-standard effectively relegates traps to a mechanic that, outside traps with genuinely high damage and DCs (IE Epic), are effectively a poor choice of skill-points, weight, and time - in addition to being heavily save and preparation dependent.
However, assuming the damage and effects from the NWN2 wikia are correct, the damage by all rights should be adequate (In all but one case, discussed below). Those traps that deal lower damage tend to be accompanied by an effect, while those that focus on damage can hit on-par with upper-tier spells. This is honestly fine, but the area that I feel traps are severely penalized is in their DCs once set.
Using the arguably more useful Frost Trap as an example, we see that the standard variants have a Fort Save DC of 12, 13, 14, and 15 - but the Epic variety suddenly spikes to a DC 30 fort save (Ignoring the damage jump from 8d4 to 40d4, since its the paralysis that matters). Under the current server paradigm, where saves for both PCs and monsters are often quite high, a DC 15 fort-save is effectively trivial for most character and (from what I have heard) negligible for monsters. Even without evasion or similar abilities, saving results in half damage and avoiding the status effect, becoming effectively forgettable by anyone prepared to take on dungeon mobs that deal substantially more.
The Spike Trap is slightly more insulting - it is a flat DC 15 reflex save regardless of strength, and has the only trap damage that seems reasonable to adjust: stepping from 2d6, 3d6, to 5d6 in Minor through Strong, followed by 25d6 at Deadly (with no Epic variant), it could probably benefit from a more consistant damage curve as it improves, in addition to some actual variation in the DC.
As it stands, each of the nw_t1_*.nss and X2_T1_*.nss scripts appear to have a flat DC associated with them. The simple and easy solution would be to take a look at the general trends once epic traps are considered, and even the DCs out across the spread, to take into account the expected saves of PCs at those levels.
A more dynamic means of addressing it would be to increase the DC of the traps by some proportion of how much better the trapper did on the Set-Trap roll than its Set-Trap DC (such as +1 save DC/5 points over the set DC). This idea was actually mentioned in a previous thread, but was at the time referenced back to the wikia. Unfortunately, I have not yet identified which script actually handles the setting of traps, to examine how to extract that information. If anyone has a suggestion of where to look, I would happily poke into it to see if the variables can be linked.
This would, in turn, mean that traps are not more lethal, but would have a higher probability of inflicting their full damage and effects on a server where saves are, effectively, inflated across the board. Likewise, it would mean that a master trapper could make even relatively basic traps have some utility if monsters and PCs become less likely to "Save and take no damage" or "Fail and take half damage". Obviously, any sort of immunities would still function - as they rightly should.
As a disclaimer, I have experience only with sub-epic content so far. Even so, outside of level 1, no trap has been a life-threatening concern unless accompanied by either 1) a spawn of monsters that take advantage of it, or 2) jumping to a region well outside level band (which basically means being carried). My primary use for traps is choke-points in dungeons or securing areas against spawns during dungeon RP or interruptible actions. - at which they fail predictably, but functions at least as a proximity warning.
TL/DR: This suggestion is about increasing the DCs of various traps to account for server power-level. I only suggest increasing damage on Average/Strong Spike traps due to their clear anomaly.
I would be interested to hear the thoughts and considerations of others on this topic.
Cheers,
~Kit
) person traps are already great pvp wise
however the decision some years ago was trying to keep low level content friendly for new players
) most average builds only end up with a high save in a the 20s, stacked builds like my hin (all reflex high w/ 30 dex) may end up with saves in the 30s, so yea while it would be doable we are talking about saves that would be damn hard for most
