Suggestion on a different take on PvE

[chad878262]

Two complaints that I either personally have, I have seen others make, or both:
1. Most areas have mobs/bosses with saves so ridiculously high that they will only fail on a '1' regardless of your DC.
- While not entirely true, in order to improve chances you have to so insanely focus on DC's as to nerf your build for anything else just to get to where they will fail on like a '4' or less... With very few exceptions.

2. Boss battles generally boil down to a 1-5 pretty standard mobs for the area that you can generally ignore to focus on the boss and then clean them up once you're done. As above the boss will generally have ridiculous saves and hit points so far above the realm of realism for what you'd expect that it encourages tactics to basically just out-tank the boss in one of various ways.
- Dynamic encounters have a much more intriguing (to me) concept of having a yellow 'boss' with usually 2 or 3 purple 'sub boss' enemies.

Suggestion that I believe can address these two items:

- Pick an existing dungeon/boss battle or maybe a couple at different CR's. Tone down the boss a LITTLE in terms of saves and HP, and instead give him appropriate long term buffs that are active up front and don't need to be cast (but can be dispelled/breached). Instead of having standard mobs backing him/her up, give the boss an entourage of sub-bosses with their own unique abilities. With any tweaks remember small changes are much better than major. Think of it as a long term project to find something that is equally challenging (maybe even more challenging solo), but not due to being built to hard counter certain abilities, but rather make it so something might only have a ~15-20% chance of working rather than 5% or a ~5-10% chance of working rather than outright immunity.

- For the sub-boss / boss group, give them different strengths and weaknesses.
- A Tank with low-mid will and reflex saves or maybe low reflex and medium-high will, but high fortitude saves, fairly high AC (like ~40-45 if we are
talking high epic boss battle), decent DR, decent AB, but relatively low damage per hit... Consider comparing the tank to some kind of a
fighter/dwarven defender or defensive/con focused barbarian for example.
- A Striker with low fortitude and will saves, high reflex, maybe even evasion. HiPS is an issue when used by mobs so maybe give the striker either
feint or on hit blinding 25% or instead of making them sneak attack based make it a Ranger with favored enemies to various PC races. Should
have relatively low defense and AB, but very high situational damage.
- An arcane spell caster - can be focused on DC/Controlling, Blasting, Buffing or really any of the schools (and even better if there can be
randomness to the type of focus the caster has to make it difficult to be fully prepared for what is going to come.) Give them middling AC (from
buffs) and low-ish Fortitude or Reflex Saves or make them have all
high saves, but based on buffs that can be stripped (gr heroism, superior resistance, protection from spells)
- A divine spell caster - here you have some fun options... Could be a melee focused cleric or favored soul, a DC focused or buffing spirit shaman,
a shape changing / spell casting druid. Go nuts!
- 3-6 additional random enemy types, perhaps they are slightly toned down from the main 4 listed above (or not!), but could be randomized so
some battles have several tanks while others have multiple casters etc.

The point here is two fold as I see it. First, if instead of having one uber boss you have a slightly toned down boss with beefed up sub-boss buddies then more play types are supported. Maybe your save or X spell won't work on all 7-10 enemies, but if it works on 1-3 enemies than it has value. If your AoE does nothing to the striker, but decent damage to the tank that your fighter is struggling to hit and does some damage to other enemies again, it's useful. Maybe your rogue party member is squishy, but can stealth to the arcane caster to take them down (or your monk can ki-step and take them out even faster).

These types of 'encounter style' of PvE engagements are far more interesting to me (and I would tend to think others) than the standard 1-4 mobs spawning at various locations. This doesn't need to be 'the new normal' and even should not be. However, having a few 'encounter' based dungeons where you have like ~6-12 sub boss battles followed by an end boss battle with no resting allowed would provide a different (and imo better) challenge to encourage party roleplay in a dungeon/cave/tower/whatever to plan/strategize, scout and take their time to make it through various challenges.

Last thought is that unbashable chests with level appropriate DCs (not requiring maxed OL and min/maxed DEX, but also not being easy for a fighter with 8 dex and a 1 in OL either), dangerous traps that require a rogue/phantom/divine seeker to disable and can't always be circumvented, puzzles that require certain underutilized spells, skills, etc. all would make for interesting dynamics to encourage forming a party with different roles being filled in order to be able to 'solve' the area.

So any area builders out there interested in taking on such a challenge? Any other thoughts on this?

[Rhifox]

I approve of this.

[Mance]

Bosses at snakes temple have undispellable sonic immunity... So i cant even think bout going there by my bard alone Bout traps - very dangerus traps is already in game. But i really think those shouldnt be on random places. Cause corridor where everyone walking is filled with traps - its makes kidna zero sense. Traps should be inside of treasure rooms Not in corridors or even higly used roads

[zhazz]

I like this idea. Have boss encounters be dynamic based on the group size too. If it is just one PC, then maybe the boss is alone. If it's five PCs then the boss might have three mini-bosses with it. This is easy enough to justify by having scouts report back the number of intruders, and the boss responding in kind.

As I have written elsewhere, I've played on Sigil before. I can't remember the name of the area, but the final boss encounter there was extremely dynamic. Anywhere from 2 to 7 bosses. Each with unique builds and powers. From what I remember there was: an archer, a rogue, a DC mage, a blaster mage, a sword/shield fighter, and a crit-your-face-for-200-two-handed fighter. I think the last one was a druid, but not sure.

Anyway, point being that you would always get two random bosses. Then more was added on top as the party size grew. Soloing the encounter was near-impossible, but obviously doable with proper preparation. Except that you had to prepare for every possible combination. It was easier when in a group, due to the group having more tools at their disposal.

Something similar here would be awesome.

[Zaelphion]

Sounds like a lot of work, but yes, great stuff.

[chad878262]

Bosses at snakes temple have undispellable sonic immunity

And this is fine, but wouldn't it be cool if instead of one boss you fight 6 (or whatever) only one of whom has sonic immunity? Wouldn't it be even better if sonic immunity was either a) because that boss applies energy immunity every day or b) there was a lore appropriate reason for the immunity?

Bout traps - very dangerus traps is already in game.

Hordes of players that speed run dungeons and have no issue simply running over traps would disagree with you. Honestly outside of the rare epic holy trap very few traps on the server give players a reason to fear them.

But i really think those shouldnt be on random places. Cause corridor where everyone walking is filled with traps - its makes kidna zero sense.

It is hard to represent in a game like NWN2, but traps in D&D are represented by tripwires, shifting/false floor boards/stones or other triggers which would be avoidable by those that 'live' in the dungeon, but might not be noticed by adventurers there to steal riches and slay the inhabitants.

Sounds like a lot of work, but yes, great stuff.

Some of it might require a bit of out of the box thinking, but other parts are not any more work than building any other area setup. It is more about encounter design than a completely different manner of development/implementation.

[c2k]

If you are going to tweak the dynamic boss encounters, make them more rewarding. For something so rare, they offer much less than a regular boss spawn.

[chad878262]

I'm not actually talking about dynamic encounters, this is more about dungeon encounter strategy. Making dungeons more about encounters (random and set) and less about random spawns. That said, I have had a few dynamic boss spawns drop some decent things, including one or two AH worthy items. Not often, but it does happen.

[c2k]

Its not just with items, I am talking about XP as well. Those dynamic super boss spawns (the ones that spawn the super tough mobs of all different colors) offer very little compared to normal spawns and its not even worth the risk fighting them.

[Mance]

And this is fine, but wouldn't it be cool if instead of one boss you fight 6 (or whatever) only one of whom has sonic immunity? Wouldn't it be even better if sonic immunity was either a) because that boss applies energy immunity every day or b) there was a lore appropriate reason for the immunity?

Yep. It would be good. Plus lore\abilites\locations could really use some love. Monsters placed randomly without considering their lore based places of living. Their abilities\strenghts also picked randomly. Like with "big white" its strongest dragon on server, while lorewise its weakest dragons possible. Also there is dragon cult around him, wile lorewise white would try to eat folks who got an idea to worship. Whites are feral dragons and arent really considering things other than meals. Its one of many examples. So i'm really on your side here.

[/quote]

Hordes of players that speed run dungeons and have no issue simply running over traps would disagree with you. Honestly outside of the rare epic holy trap very few traps on the server give players a reason to fear them.

Yeah, at P&P its happends differently, looking for traps is a part of a game. But P&P is turn based, while are playing a real time version of game, with different approach. You cant just tell master "i'm looking around" and roll dices. And at P&P you arent finding only traps, you finding hidden stashes, which also dont exist here. Turning fun of dungeon crawl into slow paced pixel hunting with no rewards... Doesnt sound as good idea to me. Sorry, Chad, my opinion is exactly opposite to yours. Even more, i'd rather remove ground traps.. If its impossible to place them with logic like inside of treasure rooms.

[c2k]

The issue with traps is some of the most fearsome traps in the game are those that are set with placeable projectile elements(meaning they are one-shots), and those traps don't seem to work with the random trap scripts. (unless no one has tried)

[Tanlaus]

The OP is a better, more thought out version of something I’ve been lobbying for myself. Right now there are plenty of epic bosses that can be soloed- most of them in fact. Not even by some power build either. On top of the fact that single opponents are much easier for certain builds than others. And the current solution of jacking up all stats just enhances that disparity.

Personally I think it would be more fun to actually have a challenge with an epic group. Which kind of leads me back to the RP of it anyway...

IIRC one of Chad’s posts on areas talking about his tendency for RP to be around adventuring. I’m for all kinds of RP- as I’m sure most everyone is- but I do prefer to base mine around going out and doing stuff, which is adventurer stuff more often than not. A change like this gives your epically geared 30s that same kind of opportunity. As opposed to every outing pretty much being a loot run.

[DM Bloodvine]

Fully support these ideas.

Specifically the comments about pre-buffed bosses, I have recently tried to poke devs to say that there is code that exists for this! It is a much more realistic approach to spellcaster mobs. At the moment they tend to be designed with passive stats that are a little high, I would like to see them reach and exceed these stats but -because- of pre buffs. The AI often has creatures try to buff themselves at the beginning of a fight and players will just kill them before they can finish. Player character's walk around with long term buffs on all the time, it makes sense that enemy spellcasters would for themselves and their allies, it also adds an interesting counterplay element and something for spellcasters to be able to focus on, they can strip certain defenses so their allies can focus on taking them down. If there was a random element to which buffs they spawned with as well this would add a lot of intrigue to spellcasting mobs but that might be more difficult to do.

[DaloLorn]

Its not just with items, I am talking about XP as well. Those dynamic super boss spawns (the ones that spawn the super tough mobs of all different colors) offer very little compared to normal spawns and its not even worth the risk fighting them.

That is literally the point of that encounter type.

[Diamore]

Its not just with items, I am talking about XP as well. Those dynamic super boss spawns (the ones that spawn the super tough mobs of all different colors) offer very little compared to normal spawns and its not even worth the risk fighting them.

That is literally the point of that encounter type.

This is a problem, but for another thread where it can be discussed more fully.

Regarding the original post, some thoughts.
I don't enjoy needing to know the abilities, AB, AC and defensive attributes of a boss ahead of a fight. I also don't like the way that this knowledge must be gained, through other characters (typically OOC) or from being defeated and checking the combat log. Having a rotating roster of enemies that can spawn just exaggerates this problem for me. No doubt some people may enjoy mapping and learning the various possible spawns, but it is something that I find to be a painfully OOC experience. Randomizing elements of an enemy, such as spell selection, pre-fight buffs or statistics can wildly effect the difficulty if the pool of options is too large or not carefully curated.

Either way, the massive hit point pool, AC, AB and saves of bosses really makes specific classes and builds vastly better or worse at fighting them. Having two or three less effective boss enemies in a room may allow for some additional variety or difficulty. The idea lives and dies based on how the additional creatures are balanced though, as there is a good chance that those builds that walked through them solo last time will continue to do it again with little improvement to the builds that the change was made for.

Suggestion:

• Include a simple but standardised identifying template to each creature from a small selection.
• Using the template idea from 3.5, this would include a prefix, standards immunities, abilities and possible statistic changes.
• The core creature, class, spell selection, buffs would not need to change but would add an element of variety and randomness.
• Examples could include the common "Undead", "Fiendish" etc. Or more specific like "Tough" granting 75% immunity to physical and energy damage, bonus to fort saves. The importance being that the prefix is standard across the server so players become acquainted with the effects through IC experience rather than by refighting the same boss over and over.
• Adding on-hit effects to the main boss that change their effectiveness or AI changes (no clue how easy this is) would also modify their danger without needing to make them just harder to kill. For example, on hit Fireball, Incendiary cloud or summons elemental for a fire or magic themed boss. This could make a fight far more unpredictable by adding a chance of unusual or unexpected effects messing with the character's plans.