Why halfling and gnome warriors are rare

[Flatted Fifth]

Medium sized characters can find any sort of over-powered, under-priced +4 weapon they want in Kalehir's store, but what do smaller characters get? Kukris and daggers, mostly. And most of those with stealth oriented properties. Sure, there's 3 maces and 1 short sword with alignment restrictions, but nothing else. No handaxes, nothing cool for the pint-sized battler. The shop in Gullykin HAD three great items added to it years ago when I first brought this up, but they have since been nerfed to +3. Their prices haven't been nerfed, though. Think about the +4 flaming bastard sword that stuns enemies, and the +4 silver katana that does an extra longsword's worth of damage to outsiders, and ask yourself why the Gullykin short sword, mace, and hand axe were nerfed. Please, un-nerf them. Make them +4, in the interest of fairness to all races.

[Truthiness]

There is a +4 EB, 1d4 (acid or fire, I forget) handaxe sold at Roaringshore for pretty cheap, IIRC. There is also an epic kukri for sale as well at the epic shop (admittedly, it's more suited to sneaks without sneak dice). The alignment restrictions on the other weapons can be overcome with 11 points into Use Magic Device, and even some of the better medium weapons have alignment restrictions on them. The imbued cold iron shortsword seems especially good. The two weapons you listed require exotic proficiency as well, so I think it's fine if they are slightly more powerful. Although a dc 18 stun 5% of the time isn't exactly an amazing bonus, considering how high monster saves are.

Halflings do make some of the most powerful builds, really. Even fighters. +1 AB/AC vs medium targets, along with an extra feat (because nobody chooses lightfoot) allows for a lot of power, even if you consider the narrowed choice of weapons.

Gnomes do have Breach Gnome, which is amazing on paper, and supposedly in practice. Without that they are admittedly in a weaker position.

I think they're in a decent position.

[Blackman D]

not sure what you are talking about but you are trying to compare 3 unknown weapons to one that has stun, which is the most worthless property in game AND talking about it being on a weapon which means its DC is going to be so low it -may- only trigger 5% of the time; and a weapon that is highly situational and not universally useful

[Lockonnow]

their can use short sword and there is a fine short sword +4 eb and 1d4 magicl dmg and silver or cold iron i cant remember

[Flatted Fifth]

their can use short sword and there is a fine short sword +4 eb and 1d4 magicl dmg and silver or cold iron i cant remember

I mentioned this one. It's 1d4 dmg vs evil only and can only be used by lawful and good. I do get a little tired of UMD being basically a requirement on this server. The idea is for non-rogue halflings and gnomes to have a decent selection of weapons.

There is a +4 EB, 1d4 (acid or fire, I forget) handaxe sold at Roaringshore for pretty cheap, IIRC.

I didn't know about that one, thanks!

There is also an epic kukri for sale as well at the epic shop (admittedly, it's more suited to sneaks without sneak dice). The alignment restrictions on the other weapons can be overcome with 11 points into Use Magic Device, and even some of the better medium weapons have alignment restrictions on them. The imbued cold iron shortsword seems especially good.

UMD is over-required on this server. A halfling or gnome fighter build isn't going to have a lot of points for a cross class UMD. Bad enough that my favoured soul has to have UMD to use scrolls and wands made by clerics, even when it's a spell she knows (but that's another topic). And honestly, my tiefling has 2 of those cold iron short swords and they're not that great. They just happen to be the ONLY epic short sword on the server. It's surprising how few non-undead enemies are actually evil, and against undead a mace is usually better than piercing damage.

The two weapons you listed require exotic proficiency as well, so I think it's fine if they are slightly more powerful. Although a dc 18 stun 5% of the time isn't exactly an amazing bonus, considering how high monster saves are.

My paladin has that flaming bastard sword AND the katana, and the stun triggers more often than I would have expected. Really, though, it's the +1d6 fire damage on top of the 1d10 normal damage and +4 enhancement damage that makes it a bit OP. that's 6-20 dmg, not including str bonus. Small weapons here are super lame in comparison, usually just having stealth ability bonuses, being tiny, and if they have any warrior type bonus it's only 1d4, on top of having lower base damage and (usually) in the hands of characters with lower strength bonus. Make the small weapons have equivalent enchantments to the bigger weapons. And more variety. Remember, small characters can't use a rapier without Monkey Grip or two-handing it.

[Tanlaus]

One thing I noticed when I played a phantom is that he couldn’t even use decent stealth gear without cross classing UMD. I’m not even taking the epic ninja stuff either.

It’s something I had not noticed before because I mostly play a class with UMD. Anyway point being I agree with FlattedFifth about the over reliance on UMD.

Personally I’d favor more variety of epic gear than just removing requirements.

[zhazz]

Small weapons here are super lame in comparison, usually just having stealth ability bonuses, being tiny, and if they have any warrior type bonus it's only 1d4, on top of having lower base damage and (usually) in the hands of characters with lower strength bonus. Make the small weapons have equivalent enchantments to the bigger weapons. And more variety. Remember, small characters can't use a rapier without Monkey Grip or two-handing it.

I agree with Flatted Fifth here.

While I don't play any Small Stature characteres, one of my characters (Adrian) uses kukris. It's quite disheartening to see several options for Rapier / Scimitar / Falchion (only considering 18-20 crit range weapons here), where they all are at least +4 EB, with a random damage mod attached, and some random on-hit effect (vampiric being one of them). While for Kukris the only +4 option is a Stealther one. There is a +3 with +1 vampiric in Corm Orp, but that's it. I've seen a single Kukri with +4 and 1d4 acid damage so far; and that obviously had Stealther stats too, and was from the RIG.

Short Swords is in the same boat. They're focused on Stealthers. For Daggers there are at least options for both Stealthers and Casters, though the latter is only due to Daggerspell Mage.

More options for small weapons, please!

Copy the template for Sylvan or Viper Scimitars, slap those stats on a Kukri, Short Sword, and Daggers, and make them available in the epic shops. Would make us all happy

[Tanlaus]

Small weapons here are super lame in comparison, usually just having stealth ability bonuses, being tiny, and if they have any warrior type bonus it's only 1d4, on top of having lower base damage and (usually) in the hands of characters with lower strength bonus. Make the small weapons have equivalent enchantments to the bigger weapons. And more variety. Remember, small characters can't use a rapier without Monkey Grip or two-handing it.

I agree with Flatted Fifth here.

While I don't play any Small Stature characteres, one of my characters (Adrian) uses kukris. It's quite disheartening to see several options for Rapier / Scimitar / Falchion (only considering 18-20 crit range weapons here), where they all are at least +4 EB, with a random damage mod attached, and some random on-hit effect (vampiric being one of them). While for Kukris the only +4 option is a Stealther one. There is a +3 with +1 vampiric in Corm Orp, but that's it. I've seen a single Kukri with +4 and 1d4 acid damage so far; and that obviously had Stealther stats too, and was from the RIG.

Short Swords is in the same boat. They're focused on Stealthers. For Daggers there are at least options for both Stealthers and Casters, though the latter is only due to Daggerspell Mage.

More options for small weapons, please!

Copy the template for Sylvan or Viper Scimitars, slap those stats on a Kukri, Short Sword, and Daggers, and make them available in the epic shops. Would make us all happy

I had just brought up in another thread that my stealther prefers daggers or short swords but the best you can do, unless you get amazingly lucky with a random drop, is +3 with stealth bonuses. Where you can get +4 kukri and +4 small fails that both have some type of extra damage in them.

Also in terms of raw damage the blindsight sickles and aforementioned roaring shore hand axes are leagues above any dagger or short sword you can buy.

I do find it a little odd.

Like I said in the other thread, it’s one thing to worry about power creep, but we’re talking about a whole class of weapons that are below what you can already buy...

What I’d give to have a pair of spectral daggers similar to my blindsight sickles.

Style matters!

[zhazz]

I had just brought up in another thread that my stealther prefers daggers or short swords but the best you can do, unless you get amazingly lucky with a random drop, is +3 with stealth bonuses. Where you can get +4 kukri and +4 small fails that both have some type of extra damage in them.

I've not found any +4 Kukris in the shops, except for the one in Baldur's Gate. With +4 EB, +1d6 Sneak Attack, and +3 Hide and Move Silently.

At the Blackrose Gala, Sirion did have a +4 Kukri with 1d4 Acid Damage, +3 Hide and Move Silently, and something else on top. Pretty sure that was from the RIG though, and not a resell from any shops. Although of course I haven't checked Underdark shops, because my characters don't go there.

Like I said in the other thread, it’s one thing to worry about power creep, but we’re talking about a whole class of weapons that are below what you can already buy...

What I’d give to have a pair of spectral daggers similar to my blindsight sickles.

Style matters!

Fully agree. Style matters.

As for power creep . . The loss of 2 AB by dual wielding something like Viperblade (+4 EB, +1d4 Acid, 1d2 Poison Dex DC 18 on hit) is easily enough mitigated. So having similar on small / tiny weapons, which can be dual wielded without the AB loss wouldn't really be a compelling argument against such such items. Even less so when Power Attack won't work with small / tiny weapons.

[Deragnost]

Medium sized characters can find any sort of over-powered, under-priced +4 weapon they want in Kalehir's store, but what do smaller characters get? Kukris and daggers, mostly. And most of those with stealth oriented properties. Sure, there's 3 maces and 1 short sword with alignment restrictions, but nothing else. No handaxes, nothing cool for the pint-sized battler. The shop in Gullykin HAD three great items added to it years ago when I first brought this up, but they have since been nerfed to +3. Their prices haven't been nerfed, though. Think about the +4 flaming bastard sword that stuns enemies, and the +4 silver katana that does an extra longsword's worth of damage to outsiders, and ask yourself why the Gullykin short sword, mace, and hand axe were nerfed. Please, un-nerf them. Make them +4, in the interest of fairness to all races.

I haven't read what's been said in the other posts, maybe they said so, maybe they didn't.

BUT.

You can still grab Monkey grip and have a gnome / halfling going about with a warmace or a greatsword or a greataxe! Nice for barbarians.

And, you'd be able to wear bastard swords with shields!

[Tanlaus]

I had just brought up in another thread that my stealther prefers daggers or short swords but the best you can do, unless you get amazingly lucky with a random drop, is +3 with stealth bonuses. Where you can get +4 kukri and +4 small fails that both have some type of extra damage in them.

I've not found any +4 Kukris in the shops, except for the one in Baldur's Gate. With +4 EB, +1d6 Sneak Attack, and +3 Hide and Move Silently.

At the Blackrose Gala, Sirion did have a +4 Kukri with 1d4 Acid Damage, +3 Hide and Move Silently, and something else on top. Pretty sure that was from the RIG though, and not a resell from any shops. Although of course I haven't checked Underdark shops, because my characters don't go there.

Like I said in the other thread, it’s one thing to worry about power creep, but we’re talking about a whole class of weapons that are below what you can already buy...

What I’d give to have a pair of spectral daggers similar to my blindsight sickles.

Style matters!

Fully agree. Style matters.

As for power creep . . The loss of 2 AB by dual wielding something like Viperblade (+4 EB, +1d4 Acid, 1d2 Poison Dex DC 18 on hit) is easily enough mitigated. So having similar on small / tiny weapons, which can be dual wielded without the AB loss wouldn't really be a compelling argument against such such items. Even less so when Power Attack won't work with small / tiny weapons.

Sirion’s was a greater kukri of the shadowmaster. I don’t know if it’s legacy or still in the loot table. Nothing you’re going to count on getting your hands in either way.

[Truthiness]

I had just brought up in another thread that my stealther prefers daggers or short swords but the best you can do, unless you get amazingly lucky with a random drop, is +3 with stealth bonuses. Where you can get +4 kukri and +4 small fails that both have some type of extra damage in them.

Also in terms of raw damage the blindsight sickles and aforementioned roaring shore hand axes are leagues above any dagger or short sword you can buy.

I do find it a little odd.

This isn't true at all. There are multiple daggers that have +4 EB and bonus damage (ruby blade helps greatly against undead in particular, and there is a very powerful shortsword as well (1d4 bonus damage vs evil, which is most of the PvE content). The elemental damage on most weapons get negated a decent amount of time, anyway, so 1d4 fire/etc isn't as worth it as 1d4 vs evil or 1d4 vs undead (on a sneak dice based character, at least).

There's a question of feat investment as well, in terms of how powerful weapons should be. Kukris are probably one of the mechanically best weapons in the game. 1~ less damage than scimitars and rapiers, but can be used by halflings with no issue and can be dual wielded without having to take oversized two weapon fighting. 1~ damage is not worth an extra feat or -2 AB. Daggers are usable by every class, don't require martial weapon proficiency/etc. I'm fine with exotic weapons being slightly more powerful, else the feat investment is wasted mechanically.

We're getting off-track anyway. Halflings are completely fine mechanically, need no buffs or more weapons. Gnomes are in bit of an odd place for fighter builds without taking Breach Gnome, but they aren't exactly designed for such, are they?

[Sputnik]

Have you seen the Lord of the Rings films?

[Flatted Fifth]

Code: Select all

Medium Sized, 1 handed non-exotic Epic Warrior Swords			Small Size, 1 handed non-exotic Epic Warrior Swords

Baatorian Green Steel Longsword +4                              			Blindsighted Sickle +4
Improved Critical Longsword								Neg Energy 1d4	
Power Criticial Longsword									Blindsight 1x / day
Usable by Evil, Lawful

Ghost Blade Rapier +4									Imbued Cold Iron Short Sword +4
dmg bonus neg energy 2									Improved Crit Short Sword
Displacement 1x / day									dmg bonus vs evil 1d4
													usable by good, lawful
Nine Lives Stealer Longsword +4
Massive Crits 1d4
Vamp Regen +2
usable by evil

Rapier of Desperate Measure +4
Improved Crit rapier
usable by true neutral or any chaotic

Sword of Life Stealing Longsword +4
on hit lvl drain dc 16
vamp regen +1
usable by evil

Sword of Virtue Beyond Reproach Longsword +4
Dmg vs evil 1d4
improved save mind affecting +2
Sunbeam 1 x / day
usable by LG, LN, NG

Sylvan Scimitar +4
Bonus feat Cleave
Piercing 1d4
usable by chaotic

Viperblade Scimitar +4
Dmg bonus acid 1d4
on hit poison dc 18 1d2 dex dmg

Still think small warriors and medium warriors are treated equally?

In fairness to the dev team, the maces are quite good. It's the selection of bladed weapons that is lackluster in the extreme. Not every halfling is a rogue/shadowdancer who wants daggers with stealth bonuses.

[Tanlaus]

And even the daggers with stealth bonuses aren’t that good compared to kukri and flails with stealth bonuses

Also for damage comparison, the +4 daggers that have damage bonuses have one point of fire, acid or electrical depending on the weapon in addition to 1d4 bonus vs undead on the aforementioned ruby daggers...

Compare those to any of the purchasable weapons above and it does seem to illuminate a disparity.