Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

It probably seems absurd for anyone to even have to resort to this, but these can be absurd times.
Sorry, but it seems to me that we really need to try to get things back on track, and clean up our acts.

I, the undersigned _________, agree to endeavor to refrain from indulging in meta-behavior.

Hidden: show

( including, but not limited to:

- Utilizing OOC methods(tells, scry) to ascertain the whereabouts of characters that mine does not have the ability to IC'ly locate for the purposes of confrontation.
- The sharing of, in any way shape or form, OOC knowledge of other characters via tells, PM's, or discord.
- The creation of alts, alternate forum accounts, or new player-named accounts, and utilizing ANY information gleaned on previous characters in an IC manner on said new alts/accounts.
- The creation of newly named accounts solely for the purposes of infiltrating/acting on grudges against specific guilds/players.
- Jumping to IC conclusions/acting on IC suspicions based purely off of meta-info.

Furthermore, I will respect the rights of my fellow players to abstain from any and all meta-info that I may posses.

I suspect the reasons for this post should be fairly obvious to any moderately long-time players... or maybe it's all tongue in cheek?

Either way, I'm signing my own thingy.

Snarfy.

PS. Just in case it wasn't obvious, I am never interested in receiving any meta-info from anyone. Like, ever. So keep it to yourselves, please and thanks.
PSS. If you don't enjoy meta as much as I don't enjoy meta, this is your friend...

Meta brings bad RP. Nuff said. Meta will not be entertained by any of my Characters.

Meta-gaming is ofcourse against the rules, yet also quite hard to police (which causes posts like this).

Though I think the intent of this post is good, and it can be quite beneficial to get some more awareness on the issue, I am not sure if the method of doing so is as beneficial.


Having said that, know that the message came across for me. I'm not sure if there's much I can do, except ensuring that I never meta-game though. But I'll ensure that the latter remains ever true, for as far as I can manage.

Isn't knowing who's in the anti-metagaming club metagaming too?

This issue is actually way more complicated than "let's all be nice to eachother". For example, imagine a quite classic situation:

Some player heard somewhere at discord or read at the forums that a certain guild is up to shady things and then forgot about it. Then, sometime later, their character hears a talk about that guild and casually inserts a rumor about their shady activity as IC knowledge, forgetting where they heard it and not giving it too much thought. Then party that heard rumors later on mentions it as IC rumors, the rumor chain-passes until it reaches Snarfy's character who perceives it as legit IC knowledge and RPs based on it, not knowing where the rumors began. So is Snarfy metagamer in this situation? And who is even to blame at all?

Long time ago I made peace with a thought that everything that can be metagamed will be metagamed, intentionally or not. Proving an act of metagaming is impossible in most situations, so beside trying to be more mindful as a community all we can do is taking individual anti-metagaming precautions. Hiding scry location, creating new usernames for new characters, stopping sharing any details about any ongoing plots at discord, all this. It's not mandatory for everyone! But if you want to reduce ammount of metagaming around you these things help a great deal.

selhan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:43 am Meta brings bad RP. Nuff said. Meta will not be entertained by any of my Characters.

There are... very rare occasions when it can be beneficial. For instance, I've been known to occasionally arrange for my PCs to "have been going somewhere/doing something all along" in order to link up with someone I observed on the scry, or to set up a long-overdue encounter with someone important to their RP.

Considering the size of the game world and the amount of characters I have, each with their own plot arcs and interests... these sorts of micro-retcons and contrived coincidences are both trivially easy (assuming the appropriate PCs are still anywhere on the Sword Coast... ), and absolutely necessary to getting anything done. That being said, I do try to be responsible about it, and I think that's a much healthier alternative to "no metagaming ever"... especially since I imagine even you and Snarfy have occasionally engaged in responsible metagaming yourselves.

Respect the relevant characters' personalities and motivations before arranging a meeting, be careful not to mix up the assorted knowledge bases of your roster (I sometimes go as far as to research the relevant information in my chat logs), and try to draw conclusions only when it really seems appropriate. (I actually delayed one such epiphany recently, on account of making a lousy INT roll and not having enough information to make it blindingly obvious just yet. Worked out pretty nicely when new information warranted another, much better INT check... )

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:07 am I do try to be responsible about it, and I think that's a much healthier alternative to "no metagaming ever"... especially since I imagine even you and Snarfy have occasionally engaged in responsible metagaming yourselves.

As I said in a recent conversation: We're all meta-gamers, to some extent, even me. The problem I think stems from "indulging" in it. Recieving meta-info is literally unavoidable, but spreading it (or acting on it) totally is.... I mean, heck, I use the scry to find characters I want to RP with, and even occasionally use the scry to avoid certain types(the ones who I anticipate will negatively impact my immersion, usually), but I wouldn't necessarily call that responsible, or even irresponsible. More like... habit, or even just a necessary evil.

It's all that other meta-y behavior, the selfish/irresponsible kind that we need to be cognizant of, so that it doesn't become 'habit', or the norm(... and I swear, some days it seems like it has).

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:20 am Isn't knowing who's in the anti-metagaming club metagaming too?

Don't worry, it's less of a club, and more about trying to remind others, as well myself, that: the less meta we engage in, the better off everyone will be.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:13 amAs I said in a recent conversation: We're all meta-gamers, to some extent, even me. The problem I think stems from "indulging" in it. Recieving meta-info is literally unavoidable, but spreading it (or acting on it) totally is.... I mean, heck, I use the scry to find characters I want to RP with, and even occasionally use the scry to avoid certain types(the ones who I anticipate will negatively impact my immersion, usually), but I wouldn't necessarily call that responsible, or even irresponsible. More like... habit, or even just a necessary evil.

Technically, indulging (or rather, overindulging) in something could be considered irresponsible...

But yeah. I think a good analogy here would be nutrition. If you eat too much salt, for example - if you engage in reckless metagaming - then it's unhealthy. But if you eat too little of it - if you're obsessively trying to avoid any form of metagaming - then that's still unhealthy, just in a completely different way. I think what I'm trying to say here is that while I absolutely agree with the result you seem to want here (at least now that you've clarified your position), the way you phrased it could have caused people to overcorrect any of their more harmless metagaming behaviors. (Sadly, I suspect that the harmful ones won't be suppressed by simply complaining on a forum... )

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:25 am But yeah. I think a good analogy here would be nutrition. If you eat too much salt, for example - if you engage in reckless metagaming - then it's unhealthy. But if you eat too little of it - if you're obsessively trying to avoid any form of metagaming - then that's still unhealthy, just in a completely different way. I think what I'm trying to say here is that while I absolutely agree with the result you seem to want here (at least now that you've clarified your position), the way you phrased it could have caused people to overcorrect any of their more harmless metagaming behaviors. (Sadly, I suspect that the harmful ones won't be suppressed by simply complaining on a forum... )

... yeah, I wasn't really expecting anyone to post in this thread saying "Hey, I'm a blatant meta-gamer! But I will try and change my ways."... it's fine if they want to skulk in the proverbial bushes, they're likely to be spotted eventually I quite like the 'salt' analogy too, it's exceptionally appropriate in this particular discussion. Whether that was intended or not, well played

Still, as you say, subjecting oneself to meta is a really unhealthy thing. Like you, I have many (too many) alts, and I am often trying to compartmentalize each of their RP, so as to avoid cross-contamination. While at least 4 or 5 of my alts are compatible with some guilds out there, I absolutely refuse to join anyone with them, because I know how brutal it would be to expose myself to that much meta-info.

And sometimes, I find myself shooting me in the foot... for example: I sometimes enjoy player-initiated events, and after seeing one posted on the forums, I thought it sounded like it might be a lot of fun. Knowing full well that my main character would never attend said event, I decided to take one of my alts over for a gander, and to get in on the RP. Alas, I was not prepared for the sheer amount of 'dirt' I was exposing myself to, and I couldn't help but think that: if I had been on my main, either lots of people at this event would either A. get murdered by my character, or B. find themselves on a very long list. Despite enjoying the event thoroughly, subjecting myself to all this meta-info was perhaps not my brightest moment ever. Several weeks later, I have still abstained from sharing any of this dirt with anyone, IC'ly or OOC'ly(my character who attended hasn't even said a peep, mostly because he didn't know anyone there), and only recently have some of the details of said event reached the ears of my main character.... the tricky part I am finding, is determining how to go about appropriately connecting some dots, while managing all this pesky meta-info I allowed to get crammed into my decrepit brain

I done it by accident before and feels super awkward, one of those things that is on my mind before going to bed.

I make a concerted effort to avoid meta-information. My position at times makes that less likely since some DM's tell me who they are in order to more easily communicate on discord with regard to balancing encounters, how to handle certain builds and the like without resorting to tactics many player consider anti-fun/unfair/whatever. In addition I do find most players just can't wait to share any little secret they find out about OOC, even while avoiding any such IC communication, which I find insanely odd, but probably boils down to other than whoever got the details legitimately (if even the originator did so) didn't share legitimately and on down the line everything else becomes illegitimate since even if shared IC, it was not obtained in such a way. So, how does one resolve these issues? If you are in possession of such information you keep your mouth shut (or in this case, don't type it out to anyone) and if someone begins to share such juicy gossip you tell them to shut the **** up!

Seriously, do you really want such details, which at some point other players are going to know you didn't obtain legitimately and will be sour that you used that information to in some way harm their character/RP? Even if it is difficult or even impossible to prove they will likely tell all of the players in their group about your indiscretion and those people will spread that information to others, then players will begin meta-gaming you in a sense by simply not RP'ing with you to avoid your meta-gaming. It really is a vicious cycle that only results in more clique's, more toxicity within the community, and less RP for everyone. So when someone decides to pass on details in a tell, or discord or anything besides in character interaction tell them you DO NOT WANT TO READ IT SO DON'T SEND IT! If IC through RP you obtain something that sounds like it may have not been obtained in a illegitimate manner, question the PC about it and check their sources... If you have concerns it was not obtained legitimately, don't use it, hell even tell the player you aren't comfortable progressing unless there is some confirmation about the legitimacy of the information. An abundance of caution is way better than the alternative IMO. By the same token, if you somehow have obtained the secret / meta-info either on purpose or because you were unable to get someone to stop typing in time, do your best to simply forget the details. Hell, pass on the fact that you were given these details without your consent to the player the meta-information is about. The only way to truly combat meta-gaming is for players to have a sort of unwritten pact with which to protect each other from it.

Of course the people that do this kind of thing either won't read or won't care about any of this so likely a moot point. Sad, but true.

I’ve sorta come to the conclusion that this server couldn’t exist without the meta and the OOC.

It has been so foundational to getting to where we are now, that it’s ingrained, and without a full wipe and resetting the Rules, all one can do is hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

How’s that for a pep talk.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:41 amSo, how does one resolve these issues? If you are in possession of such information you keep your mouth shut (or in this case, don't type it out to anyone) and if someone begins to share such juicy gossip you tell them to shut the **** up!

Thisthisthisthisthis all this. Also, try not to give OOC details about your characters to others. Seriously, some of us would MUCH rather find out in-character!

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:55 am I’ve sorta come to the conclusion that this server couldn’t exist without the meta and the OOC.

It has been so foundational to getting to where we are now, that it’s ingrained, and without a full wipe and resetting the Rules, all one can did is hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

How’s that for a pep talk.

... you bitter old fart.

Sincerely,

The horses mouth.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:07 am [ Also, try not to give OOC details about your characters to others. Seriously, some of us would MUCH rather find out in-character!

*Insert innocent whistling*

I tend to get far too excited here and commit this crime. But I'll cut down, just for your promised poisoned cupcakes.

One thing I've found helps is bringing a second person to a meeting via HIPS or even just bringing them along; that way, if you don't use logs (such as myself) or don't screenshot everything, you have another person to make sure you remember what you do. Some people use notes too!

Then there's always the good old connecting the dots: would my character reasonably make this conclusion with the evidence they currently have? I've ran into situations where I would say "absolutely not." If it's even a maybe, wait for more information. Have your character dig for the truth if they'd do that. Do not just make the conclusion.

As for Steve! I've never felt so motivated or uplifted in my entire life. "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst" is what has to be done in those situations. A part of metagaming is goodwill, or lack or breaking thereof.

"If wishes were horses beggars would ride."

TBH this is why I don't read any RP threads that one of my characters is not actively involved with or wouldn't be likely to happen across. Much easier to avoid accidentally metaing something.