Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

As the title suggests, I request deleting the following thing from PvP rules:

- Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.

The reasoning behind it is the KoS, coming to surface / underdark interraction, serves no other purpose but allowing to attack players circumventing any RP, which is pretty wild on a RP server. This ruling simply opens gates for griefing and powergaming, providing nothing for the gameplay consistency. I know this suggestion will meet some resistance, and I've had this argument many times before, so I'll try to preemptively answer the most popular counter points.



1) But my character hates drow with whole their heart and wants to destroy them, not attacking them on sight is ruining my RP.
You still can attack the said drow on the surface following normal PvP rules, thankfully they allow a lot of room for it. The difference is you will have to provide some RP for it, while KoS rules allow to ignore any RP.

2) What if drow will start abusing RP out rules, using them as a shield and forcing their presence on surface areas?
That's a good point, but again, normal PvP rules apply and allow to violently resolve any conflict. If a character takes a RP out, they also must leave the area, so the agressor has more advantage than it seems. It could've been a problem if UD races were allowed to visit civilized settlements (since attacking them there falls under godmodding), but... they aren't! In fact, at Sshamath it's playing out just great and causes no drama.

3) In the past, drow lost any trust by their constant PvP mongering, I don't want it again.
Times changed. In the current server reality, the sort of semi-OOC PvP violence that used to take place before is almost impossible. Even if such tendency will begin again, it won't become a server-wide issue in a second, so it will be a topic of a separate discussion. Though I doubt it will happen again at all. It was done by specific groups of players, the groups that are no longer around.

4) They play monster races so should be treated as monsters!
Yes, it's not something I made up. Unfortunately, I hear this sort of argument as well, and I don't even know if it's worth answering. Drow are the same race as an elf or human in terms of rights and responsibilities. And most importantly, there's the same player as you behind any orc or drow, so "it was your choice to play a drow, you made it so suffer" arguments just... don't work, it's an outright OOC hostility and toxicity, not a valid point of view.


In conclusion, I'll mention once more that KoS is not a key or requirement to violent conflicts, it's a key to OOC PvP griefing that brings nothing to the RP envionment but this. So I suggest removing it.

Considering in the past that players would cross the threshold for PvP, the rule basically gives the "home turf" the first action of PvP, assuming they want to initiate it. Its meant to be unfair.

Counterargument #3 is why the "don't cross without RP reason" rule was instituted, not KOS.

just give surface race 3 stats attributes and SR41. both can go anywhere after that because both have same base power

instead, more surfacers will hang out in the UD and more RP.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:53 am The reasoning behind it is the KoS, coming to surface / underdark interraction, serves no other purpose but allowing to attack players circumventing any RP, which is pretty wild on a RP server. This ruling simply opens gates for griefing and powergaming, providing nothing for the gameplay consistency.

In my 9+ year tenure of playing a drow-hating elf as my main, I have attacked drow, on sight, and on the surface, a whopping total of one time(that I can remember). All other PvP bouts with drow on the surface were preceded by role-play.

AFAIC, if a drow is on the surface with their features revealed, and in an area where the probability of encountering danger is high, I think it's only fair they should be fair game. Conversely, I would also be perfectly content with the kill-on-sight rule applying to un-disguised surfacers who think it's a good idea to go down to the Underdark.

To be perfectly honest, I am not a fan of the PvP-out system as is, for several reasons.
- Reason Number one: This is a purely OOC implementation designed to introduce "fair play" in PvP encounters, and to probably alleviate the workload of the poor DM's that would otherwise get dragged into PvP-aftermaths. In certain instances, especially where long standing rivalries are concerned(IE: elves VS drow, Paladins VS Evil Necromancers, etc) the PvP-out system has little to zero basis in "IC" reality.

- The very process of giving the other PLAYER (not character) an adequate/plausible PvP-out can often be, at best, tantamount to meta-gaming your characters intentions to the other player(especially if they do not know your character is there), or, at worst, wholly damaging to immersion. Which is something that your first example alludes to.

1) But my character hates drow with whole their heart and wants to destroy them, not attacking them on sight is ruining my RP.
You still can attack the said drow on the surface following normal PvP rules, thankfully they allow a lot of room for it. The difference is you will have to provide some RP for it, while KoS rules allow to ignore any RP.

This is a rather one-sided example, because I'm sure there are still some evil drow out there, somewhere, who have perfectly legitimate IC reasons to hate surfacers(particularly elves) and/or kill them on sight. And, lets not mince any words here, in the context of the current server climate, this is really an Elves VS Drow debate. Adjusting the rules and applying the PvP-out aspect to UD/Surfacer encounters, especially in the case of Elves VS Drow, would fly in the face of their millennia long rivalry. And, quite frankly, we're already getting to the point where OOC "Political correctness" is taking precedence over fundamental, canonical lore.

Don't believe me? Yesterday, my surface elfs latest IC endeavors against the drow, and drow-collaborators, was referred to in actual role-play as a "Jihad". Modern day references aside, it is absolutely baffling as to the way Elven/Drow canonical lore is being watered down, or dismissed, to the point where non-elf surfacers are absolutely horrified that any elf would want to outright kill drow. But, if a surface elf is dragged off into the UD, well, that's alright... I guess?

My elf isn't even a Shevarashian for crying out loud But he DOES have a history with drow. Why should an OOC rule determine how I play my character? I can only imagine how horrific it would be to actually play a follower of Shevarash and have to offer their mortal enemies a PvP-out.
Or to play a Paladin that has to give a necromancer an out.
Or <insert rivalry due to class or back-story here>..... it would suck.

2) What if drow will start abusing RP out rules, using them as a shield and forcing their presence on surface areas?
That's a good point, but again, normal PvP rules apply and allow to violently resolve any conflict. If a character takes a RP out, they also must leave the area, so the agressor has more advantage than it seems. It could've been a problem if UD races were allowed to visit civilized settlements (since attacking them there falls under godmodding), but... they aren't! In fact, at Sshamath it's playing out just great and causes no drama.

Douche-bag players abuse the rules. Period. This is not a race-specific thing.

3) In the past, drow lost any trust by their constant PvP mongering, I don't want it again.
Times changed. In the current server reality, the sort of semi-OOC PvP violence that used to take place before is almost impossible. Even if such tendency will begin again, it won't become a server-wide issue in a second, so it will be a topic of a separate discussion. Though I doubt it will happen again at all. It was done by specific groups of players, the groups that are no longer around.

OOC Player mentality may have changed, certainly. But the history and timeline of the server? Mmm, I haven't seen anything that would inspire any of my surface characters to regard underdark characters in more rosy terms.

4) They play monster races so should be treated as monsters!
Yes, it's not something I made up. Unfortunately, I hear this sort of argument as well, and I don't even know if it's worth answering. Drow are the same race as an elf or human in terms of rights and responsibilities. And most importantly, there's the same player as you behind any orc or drow, so "it was your choice to play a drow, you made it so suffer" arguments just... don't work, it's an outright OOC hostility and toxicity, not a valid point of view.

Once again, this is an Elf VS Drow issue. Many elves regard drow as monsters, IC'ly, even though drow are classified as humanoid in the rules... whether Underdark characters are regarded as "monsters" or not should be wholly dependant on the individual perspectives and back-story of surfacers, and their history of encounters with underdark'ers.

Without it player races will:

A) Not primarily play in the UD.
B) Not respect how dangerous the surface is to UD' races and to a lesser extent and surfacers wont respect drow matrons or drow society. Anyone on the opposite side should NEVER feel comfortable and be scared as heck to be discovered.
C) Parity. UD races are more powerful then surface races. As per vault statistics show nearly everyone is playing races to maximize build power.
D) Lead to uncomfortable and poor RP as players will accept their friends monster characters but not other peoples.
E) Troll. Do things like lead monster parties into Baldur's Gate and then in all likelyhood complain when anyone intervenes including a DM.

It is a good rule that leads to a better roleplay environment. There should be harsher penalties IMO to make sure UD races on the surface and surfacers in drow cities do their utmost at all times to prevent being discovered.

Keep the ruling.

Improve upon it by adding a perma-strike as a penalty for dying 'on the other side'

ajcolt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:11 pm Without it player races will:

A) Not primarily play in the UD.
B) Not respect how dangerous the surface is to UD' races and to a lesser extent and surfacers wont respect drow matrons or drow society. Anyone on the opposite side should NEVER feel comfortable and be scared as heck to be discovered.
C) Parity. UD races are more powerful then surface races. As per vault statistics show nearly everyone is playing races to maximize build power.
D) Lead to uncomfortable and poor RP as players will accept their friends monster characters but not other peoples.
E) Troll. Do things like lead monster parties into Baldur's Gate and then in all likelyhood complain when anyone intervenes including a DM.

It is a good rule that leads to a better roleplay environment. There should be harsher penalties IMO to make sure UD races on the surface and surfacers in drow cities do their utmost at all times to prevent being discovered.

All of this. Giving UD'ers the ability to simply take a PvP-out is far more likely to result in more instances of silly behavior than any instances of "griefing" that may be occurring(.. ?? I haven't heard of any lately). PvP-outs are already the ultimate "get out of death free" card, players can already run around and behave like jerks, and sabotage roleplay with poor behavior with impunity... and THEN hide behind this rule. There's no need to open the door to more trollery.

I would be for alleviating the rules in the Upperdark. Honestly, I believe that is why it was introduced in the first place. But I think the surface/UD rules should be in place.

And KOS rules just means you can't initiate the PvP. If some surface character jumps on yours, you are free to defend yourself. Of course the real problem becomes "Do I have a RP reason to be on the surface?" and from people, even drow that did have a RP reason, getting past the aftermath of that one PvP incident is going to be taxing. 9 out of 10 times, the loser of PvP will whine about it, because no one here can accept losing. (yes, even most of the people here that talk tough about PvP.)

c2k wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:14 pm I would be for alleviating the rules in the Upperdark. Honestly, I believe that is why it was introduced in the first place. But I think the surface/UD rules should be in place.

And KOS rules just means you can't initiate the PvP. If some surface character jumps on yours, you are free to defend yourself. Of course the real problem becomes "Do I have a RP reason to be on the surface?" and from people, even drow that did have a RP reason, getting past the aftermath of that one PvP incident is going to be taxing. 9 out of 10 times, the loser of PvP will whine about it, because no one here can accept losing. (yes, even most of the people here that talk tough about PvP.)

In pvp tournaments is when you realize even the biggest though guys are QQers in secret. But honestly I feel like this shouldn't even be a discussion anyways.

In my opinion, this is somewhat of a moot point because Underdark PC's rarely go the surface due to the OOC Rule of requiring a RP reason to be there. Surface PC's commonly go to the Upperdark (it doesn't require a RP reason to be there) but that is not a KoS area. Surface PC's are also allowed to walk freely in Sshamath by the IC laws of the city.

Drow can only go to the surface for RP reasons, not like they can get exp there or loot.

So yeah I don't understand most of those points about trolling or going to the surface to pvp with OP builds (I saw the statistics thread and there was nothing about drow being for powerbuilers, like, most server is guilty of this when Assassin is the most popular class).

But these threads quickly become echo chambers and full of baseless arguments, or under a very specific and unlikely premise.

I agree and disagree with the premise of the OP. On one hand I'd suggest that giving anyone an RP out from PvP'ing should be removed entirely. It breaks immersion and ruins RP just in general, much less where drow are concerned.

However, I agree that PvP always be preceded by some kind of RP by the characters seeking to PvP. It keeps immersion, and it provides consequences for players who play races that are, by and large, kill on sight in the actual lore. While this is a medium RP server, I feel it's the very minimum one can do in providing a good experience where PvP (or, winning/losing in the minds of many players) is concerned.

But drow are considered boogeymen. Most people think they're a myth, but those that know better know exactly the kind of evil, cruel, and manipulative race they tended to be, leading to them being universally hated and feared by the surface of Toril. Elves hate them as part of thousands of years of history and warfare between them. Most people would run if they were alone, and attack on sight if they thought they had the upper hand because they're that feared.

So, assuming my suggestion that all RP outs are gotten rid of (lol) I'd argue that the rule should stay, but I don't believe drow on the surface should ever be given an RP out, and forced to deal with any PvP that comes their way.

Putting my staff color aside and speaking as a player, I've always felt like KoS is anti-RP and support the notion of removing or restructuring of this rule to better facilitate the enjoyment of the defending participant. At the bare minimum hostility towards the character should have to be RPed first rather than allowing someone to toggle hostile and engaging in immediate combat with no prelude.

Dragonslayer wrote: ↑Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:01 pm I agree and disagree with the premise of the OP. On one hand I'd suggest that giving anyone an RP out from PvP'ing should be removed entirely. It breaks immersion and ruins RP just in general, much less where drow are concerned.

However, I agree that PvP always be preceded by some kind of RP by the characters seeking to PvP. It keeps immersion, and it provides consequences for players who play races that are, by and large, kill on sight in the actual lore. While this is a medium RP server, I feel it's the very minimum one can do in providing a good experience where PvP (or, winning/losing in the minds of many players) is concerned.

But drow are considered boogeymen. Most people think they're a myth, but those that know better know exactly the kind of evil, cruel, and manipulative race they tended to be, leading to them being universally hated and feared by the surface of Toril. Elves hate them as part of thousands of years of history and warfare between them. Most people would run if they were alone, and attack on sight if they thought they had the upper hand because they're that feared.

So, assuming my suggestion that all RP outs are gotten rid of (lol) I'd argue that the rule should stay, but I don't believe drow on the surface should ever be given an RP out, and forced to deal with any PvP that comes their way.

This.