Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I'm sure most people are familiar with campfire chats about killing massively powerful creatures (white dragons, giant kings, pit fiends, balors, etc.) that sometimes feel very casual given the semi-mythic nature of these beings. This is, in part, a consequence of having high-level characters and the nature of the game's mechanics. When I hear these discussions, I try not to think too much about them because it's like a tiny hammer knocking away at the glass wall that separates the living world of the server and NWN the game. Sometimes it's even easier because the character I am playing would have no interest in giant kings or have no idea what a balor is (Drem, for example, is just a low-level enforcer for a gang from Waterdeep), but a particular campfire eavesdropping had my head spinning today.

Before I get into the thick of things, I want to preface this by saying that I mean no ill will toward the player that made the in-character comments I'm about to discuss as they are likely just a consequence of various other factors of the server's life.

That said, the conversation that I overheard involved casual discussion of obyriths being frequent visitors to the BG region. To put some perspective on this if you are not familiar with obyriths, they are ancient Abyss-dwelling evils of extraordinary power that predate the gods. They're also in decline and fairly rare, even in the Abyss. The most powerful among them are the kind of beings that induce madness in all but the most strong-willed and could probably smack down a god or two themselves. They are also the kind of beings that rarely leave their domains. For some additional context, knowledge of some of the more basic forms of obyrith still around sit at DC 25+ planar lore checks in the Fiendish Codex 1 just to know they exist and are ancient. Now my current character has no point of reference for any of this, but it was clear that some around the campfire did and I have played a character who would probably have some limited knowledge of such a being. If that character, a Halruaan wizard, had overheard this conversation, he probably would've run screaming into the city to warn all the residents they were doomed and then packed his bags and hopped on the first caravan back to Halruaa. Discussion of frequent extra-planar incursions by some of the most powerful and ancient beings in existence is the kind of thing you expect to find in secretive cloisters of powerful wizards and specialized scholars. Finding it in casual discussion around a campfire outside an inn is on par with Elminster showing up for brunch on the weekends and everyone just laughing it off like he's the guy who does the landscaping for Duke Eltan.

I realize a few things are in play here:
1. The age of the PW and its looooooooooooooong history
2. The existence of an abundance of level 30 (or close) characters
3. The underlying game mechanics resulting in a world where you kill the king of the giants every Sunday
4. An abundance of characters who want to be the One™ taking on the biggest and baddest (it is a fantasy world after all; no shame in trying)
4. Boredom? (See 1)

So my question to everyone here is: How do you deal with this?

This is a really good question, and I'd love to see some workable solutions. Some of the best RP-around-it answers I've heard were people who killed the White Dragon saying they "managed to fight it off until it backed off for a moment then grabbed some treasure and escaped".

This is a tough problem to solve, since players want to fight cool, powerful enemies, and area designers can't replace the human intelligence DMs have that would allow them to make a reasonable story out of things.

I really, really want a solution to this; it keeps me up at night. (Kidding not kidding.)

Thank you for making this post. I’m fairly confident I know who the person saying this at the campfire. Hell, I’m fairly confident half the server knows. But I won’t say the name of the player or character. What you mention here has been discussed with friends and myself in other chats and I feel you hit it the nail on the head here. I know the one person who does this (once again, not saying names) does this to prove these points as a matter of fact. Pretty much, think of creating a character that will use the game mechanics to stretch the limits of pnp.

Because of things like this, I stay away from the campfire without first sidelining and analyzing the people there first. Though, someone comes along and starts talking about how they cantrip a bombardment spell Into their own personal lighter at the tip of their finger to light a cigarette or magically force other players to hear and see things without a single roll or check. This honestly has kinda made me put playing the game on the shelf numerous times. I just log out and for the most part, it upset me, because you don’t want to be confrontational.

I wish there was a solution for this. I want to say “maturity” or just being a bit more understanding of the how the game is not pnp and therefor allows a little more privilege with character development. Knowing not to walk the line of what you see is what you get. Most people are good with this but there are those small offenders that don’t care for it - killing dragons and traveling the planes daily like it’s a magic schoolbus episode.

This is more of an added on rant but I’m finally glad someone is addressing this.

Hello!

Person who mentioned oberyths here.


Server history!

Nashkel.

Nashkel had people going insane for months.

Olin Gisir showed up, and learnt a mythal keeping an oberyth trapped has been weakened.

Candlekeep, Doron Amar and Helmites work on this issue.

Just as we're about to resolve it, a portal opened in Nashkel, and Helm's own avatar showed up to keep it shut.

Meanwhile, the Elder Circle, En Dharasha Everae and Doron Amar went to ritual sites outlined by the Olin Gisir to stop the Mythal from unravelling. This prevented the Oberyth from escaping and affecting the world.


So in simple english:

Elite order of elves asks Candlkeep and Doron Amar for help in maintaining a magical barrier. This explains why people in Nashkel were going crazy and bathing in goat blood naked in the snow for no reason.

Barrier gets weak enough for oberyth to open a portal to call upon lesser demons to try and hasten the destabilization.

Elves and druids save the day. An actual oberyth was never encountered. We just knew it'd show up if we (do-me) up.


But sure, let's judge a book without even looking at its cover.


My own character in question worked as a liaison between Olin Gisir, Doron Amar and Candlekeep, and participated in the Elder Circle's own mission.

Said mission? Fight your way through crazed mobs and demons to offer a sacrifice at the altar of the elven god of Mythals in unison with 2 other points. Sacrifice works, elven god does his job and makes a Miracle happen, restoring the mythal to its former glory.




Added context:

Around the campfire we were discussing the fact that local people would often protect evil gods and their worshippers, saying they're insane. My character proposed that maybe the damn oberyth wasn't properly bound and is influencing people.

Understandable.

Nevertheless, the issue (aside from that campaign) is that some players who do the everyday mob hunting and are mechanically lvl30 tend to fall into this category of demi godlike status in what they converse about.

I think the point of conversation should focus on that.

Hoihe, please don't take this as an attack on you personally, but your additional context sheds some light on the crux of the issues I brought up. Namely: is a campfire outside a major inn or city an appropriate place to discuss incredible dark secrets involving potentially loose ancient evils held by organizations like the Olin Gisir (dedicated to keeping those secrets)? From an immersion perspective, hearing this kind of thing at such a location is one of the hammers knocking on the glass and from an RP perspective, who knows who might be listening in! Instead of Drem, the low-level enforcer, it could've been Taleveryx, the evil archmage looking for a leg up on bringing about the end of the world.

So let me also pose this question: How can we prevent the fantastic from sinking into mundanity?

Blackbird wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:35 pm 1. The age of the PW and its looooooooooooooong history
2. The existence of an abundance of level 30 (or close) characters
3. The underlying game mechanics resulting in a world where you kill the king of the giants every Sunday
4. An abundance of characters who want to be the One™ taking on the biggest and baddest (it is a fantasy world after all; no shame in trying)
4. Boredom? (See 1)
So my question to everyone here is: How do you deal with this?

I'm leaning mostly towards #1, but you also might have left out two biggies: Player mentality, and in-character/player(?) ego.

I think you will find, as many here probably already have, that the longer you play here, the easier it becomes to simply brush off and/or walk away from things that you find personally damaging to individual immersion. Once upon a time, the Avernus map was a normal fixture within the PW, and let me tell you, having an in-game area that represented one of the layers of The Hells was just about the most difficult thing to endure when it came to staying immersed during campfire chat time.

Personally speaking, I've made the personal decision to rarely, if ever, take any of my characters out to epic areas either solo, or with groups, partially for the sake of it not feeling like a realistic thing that my characters would IC'ly do. If my characters do happen to go and help kill a balor, I will RP it as just that, "I helped". I did this for the first time in maybe 6 or 7 years, a few weeks ago, and it took the group that invited my character a LOT of convincing.

I also tend to steer clear of any campfire chats that devolve into conversations about how party X, Y, Z just got back from rofl-stomping through epic areas 1 through 10 in a half a day. This will sound bitter(and I am), but munchkin'ism manifesting into RP is absolutely not my cup of tea. When it comes to preserving my own immersion, I find that the easiest thing to do is: simply make the OOC decision to walk away from it.

For me, again personally speaking, and after playing here for so long, "campfire chats about killing massively powerful creatures" has a rather minimal impact on my RP. What I tend to find nowadays that absolutely drags me right out of immersion tends to be far more flagrant to the setting, and rules, in nature... for example: characters speaking, and behaving, with questionable intent in civilized areas that are monitored by both PC's, and NPC guards, or when characters react IC'ly to information their player has received in the combat log, and especially those who visibly react to transition sounds when someone hidden is lurking after them. What's worse is that these kinds of things are only a small taste of what I have witnessed over the past month, and a variety of behavior that dragon/balor/pit-fiend slayer RP doesn't even hold a candle to in terms of immersion damage.

Blackbird wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:29 pm Hoihe, please don't take this as an attack on you personally, but your additional context sheds some light on the crux of the issues I brought up. Namely: is a campfire outside a major inn or city an appropriate place to discuss incredible dark secrets involving potentially loose ancient evils held by organizations like the Olin Gisir (dedicated to keeping those secrets)? From an immersion perspective, hearing this kind of thing at such a location is one of the hammers knocking on the glass and from an RP perspective, who knows who might be listening in! Instead of Drem, the low-level enforcer, it could've been Taleveryx, the evil archmage looking for a leg up on bringing about the end of the world.

So let me also pose this question: How can we prevent the fantastic from sinking into mundanity?

It's not exactly a dark secret. Druids knew, Nashkel's clergy of Helm knew. Candlekeep knew, elves knew. Order of Silver Rose and Radiant Heart knew.


What else is known by the average peasant in our setting?

- 1348: a massive army of dragons shows up and begin fighting each other. A number of peasants have their homes destroyed, but another number are about to suffer tragedy when silver/brass/gold/copper/bronze dragons show up to defend them. One particular dragon might be well known in Baldur's Gate, who simply referred to himself as Mark - a brass dragon who, after saving someone, went on to make them wish they were dead by talking their ears off.
- 1348: While the Flaming fist is south, fighting the Amnians, Baldur's Gate gets attacked by a massive horde of undead WHILE the dragons are fighting. This leaves the city unable to attend to internal security.
- 1348: (Flaming Fist/Amnian soldiers only): Everyone on the frontline who went to sleep would not wake up for days to come. Suddenly, they wake up, and Candlekeep shows up out of nowhere - explaining an artifact of Talona was used to trap the minds of the locals in a horrible nightmare.
- 1348: Suddenly, from the Hall of Wonders a massive inferno rises, destroying most of the Palace District. From this inferno emerges a massive, five-headed dragon who flew off. Afterwards, the dragons dissipated. Candlekeep would have informed some people that the entity was Tiamat.
-Sometime after 1348: Massive, powerful orcs show up - it turns out many of them are half-fiends. They try to destroy Doron Amar. Fail. Some of them raided the farmlands of Baldur's Gate.
- Sometime after the above, I think 1350: People in Nashkel are going crazy, while people from Baldur's Gate sleepwalk and disappear not to be seen again.
- Later 1350: HELM HIMSELF shows up in Nashkel to protect his faithful from a portal that opened.
1351-2 ish: A strange dragon never before seen begins terrorizing ships on the Sword Coast. It only shows up at night and flees at daylight (Deep dragon). It disappears one day
- Sometime around 1352, 3: Someone discovered Warlock's Crypt. Suddenly, Liches are attacking Baldur's Gate for this disruption. TONS of undead, tons of powerful magic.
- At the same time as above: Talonite forces raise an army of undead and crazy cultists to ALSO attack Baldur's Gate.
- At the same time as above: A more clandestine cult of Talonites try to enact a coup of the Dukes. Their leader is killed by the Whistling Wanderess crew and Order of Radiant Heart - this was posted in the newspapers.
- After the above: The Dukes make a truce with the liches of Warlock's Crypt, promising to NEVER bother them again.
- After the above: The Talonite undead breach the city's defences, and Lathandari paladins and priests face off against it using strange magical devices that channeled sunlight itself (Sun cannons).
- 1355-56: Supposedly a rogue Zhent agent tampered with a portal to the north, and suddenly we're all fighting devils now.
- 1355-56: (elves) Devils invade the elven homeland of Misty Forest. Corellon himself shows his favour, protecting the children from certain death. Elves slay the devil's spymaster, a paelyrion and its pest Hellfire Wyrm at great cost - through a united army of paladins, elves and fey.
- 1355-56: Flaming Fist and other mercenary forces are spending day and night fighting lemures and other lesser devils, assisted by adventurers and elite mercenaries to vanquish greater devils, including lesser pit fiends leading major strike forces.
- 1355-56: Through a secret plan, the adventurers and Flaming Fist destroy numerous slave and production facilities the devils used in almost one night. Duke Eltan, general Scar, the Order of Radiant Heart and some elves manage to vanquish one of the sub-generals of the devil host, while Thedran leads a suicide mission to destroy the forges devils used to create their hellsteel golems. (Far more names did many things, but I can only speak of those my character learnt, or were on the forums. Also, I'm trying to stick to stuff either BG commoners, flaming fist/relatives or various races would know)
- 1355-56: The main assault on the devil's forward operating base happens. Tempus takes notice of the valorous combat mortals showed, and he sent his very avatar - riding upon TWO chariots of fire to ride at the bastion the devils set up, and single-handedly knocked it over.
- 1356: the dukes go on a celebratory voyage and devils attack them not far from the farmlands. The devils are repelled.
- 1356: (greenest) A massive horde of devils is repelled by amnian forces and adventurers.
- 1356: Dragonspear is captured, the devils vanquished. Elminster himself fought in the final battle.


All of the above would be known by:

Either a simple commoner of Baldur's Gate, being witness to the very events
A member of the Flaming Fist being witness, or the relative of such a mercenary being told the tale
Elves living in Doron Amar or En Dharasha
Commoner in Nashkel

Also, the above is written from what I learnt ICly or OOCly through the forums. I know there are nuances to certain events that my character was not privy to - particularly in 1348. There's also possible bias where factions might be concerned and their impact or membership. I did try to leave out stuff that was learnt through intrigue of who was behind what.


For the PvE aspect, I agree with Snarfy. It's why I tend to rarely do PvE, and when I do - I try to make it be something of a "mini-event" for the people I am with, if I am confident they're willing to reciprocate rather than Haste up and run ahead without care.

Elves visiting a nearby tower that leads to the Underdark every month or so to see if it's been used or lay traps for drow makes more sense than going there daily to get all the sweet loot. It does lead to said elves being more poor than Billy the Favored Soul-Cleric of Ishtishia.

That Zhentarim was very much a rogue.

Bobthehero wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:59 pm That Zhentarim was very much a rogue.

Made an addendum of "These are things I learnt IC, or through the forums. Might be lacking nuance, or be biased in who it mentions."

This is why I almost never talk about the high fantasy events when playing. I don't refer to them, I don't mention my involvement with them and I don't bring them up in unrelated conversations. I only speak about them if the context is directly relevant.

When someone around me does, it breaks immersion. It doesn't matter if these things happened, what matters is how it shapes your character's thinking and the thinking of those around you. In any campaign setting for pnp, the events listed would dramatically traumatise all the non-adventurers. The coast would rapidly descend into a more grim-dark one and the population would be dramatically reduced. Its like most british police procedurals, the little town with a few murders each week. Those shows succeed by glossing over the fact that the towns population has been halved from murders, not pausing to remind the viewer that 25% of the population are homicidal killers and "oh by the way, would you like some tea?"

The only reason such high fantasy events even occur is due to players needing the feeling of an epic adventure or because epic characters actively cause them. The various time zones mean that several insane/world shaking events can be happening at the same time.

There is a very obvious reason why DnD resets their world and lore every few years, they escalate events too quickly and with such frequency that the world is fundamentally altered from what it is supposed to be.

Diamore wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:24 pm This is why I almost never talk about the high fantasy events when playing. I don't refer to them, I don't mention my involvement with them and I don't bring them up in unrelated conversations. I only speak about them if the context is directly relevant.

When someone around me does, it breaks immersion. It doesn't matter if these things happened, what matters is how it shapes your character's thinking and the thinking of those around you. In any campaign setting for pnp, the events listed would dramatically traumatise all the non-adventurers. The coast would rapidly descend into a more grim-dark one and the population would be dramatically reduced. Its like most british police procedurals, the little town with a few murders each week. Those shows succeed by glossing over the fact that the towns population has been halved from murders, not pausing to remind the viewer that 25% of the population are homicidal killers and "oh by the way, would you like some tea?"

The only reason such high fantasy events even occur is due to players needing the feeling of an epic adventure or because epic characters actively cause them. The various time zones mean that several insane/world shaking events can be happening at the same time.

A simple, level 3 spell fixes PTSD (see my signature). It costs no expensive components, no experience. It just needs a level 5 cleric, with which a metropolis is chock-ful of.

Especially if you consider that Saint Merielle "defeated" Bhaal in the region, further encouraging Ilmatari faith.

And if anything, these events would make locals more trusting and faithful of the gods and their servants, for they have come through time and time again.

Rebuttal:
Magic fixes everything= There are no stakes.

If you do not know the spell, you do not know it. (Play your sheet)

You are answering "how do we avoid the fantastical becoming the mundane" by saying we need more fantastical.

The necessity of intervention to live even a vaguely normal life does not make you more happy with your lot in life.

Diamore wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:31 pm Rebuttal:
Magic fixes everything= There are no stakes.

If you do not know the spell, you do not know it. (Play your sheet)

You are answering "how do we avoid the fantastical becoming the mundane" by saying we need more fantastical.

We are playing Forgotten Realms, not Monty Python "I rolled around in the mud and died of infection."

We play for the fantastical elements, for the spells that surpass modern medicine and bring hope. For the heroes that represent tangible justice, tangible good.

We don't play to die of infection from a cut on our feet brought about by stepping into mud after walking on cobblestone barefeet.

We have magic to ease the pain of the mind and soul. We have clerics who can do that without even magic by invoking the love and teaching of their gods.

We have amazing afterlife that is proven to exist by both wizards and clerics that dispel worries and fear. For if a Tymoran dies, he'll be rewarded by eternity of gambling and revelry.

You are using "we" a lot.The fact that you revel in the fantastical does not mean others do as evidenced by this thread and several others.

The world of Faerun is strife, war, disease and dark magic. It is also one of gods and heroes and mighty works. It is objectively darker than our real world due to the nature of balance between the gulfs of good and evil.

An adventurer does not fear disease, injury, insanity or even death in the same way as a commoner does. The fact that everyone who you interact with on the server is some version of an adventurer is not emblematic of the world itself.

And again, when magic solves everything there are no stakes.

As well as, adventurers can't do everything. (play your sheet)

Additionally, try not to make such extremely reductive arguments about toe cuts when people are asking for a way to not have their play style and immersion ruined. It is very demeaning to those with these concerns.