Rebuilding the RP in the Underdark - How are we doing it?

[Vallyn]

It has been stated in several threads that rebuilding the Roleplay in the Underdark is a priority and that a server change was made to help move this along.

Without getting into that server change (Please for all that is good, don't bring it up here in this thread), I have a few concerns:

This is the city of Sshamath. The lore for Sshamath is very well documented on this forum and in the NWN wiki. Why are all of the players either Quellar Mori'hyanda or more recently Quellar Noqu'afin?


I've been on most of the day each day since the changes were made and since the intent was stated that rebuilding UD roleplay was a priority and it seems like all of the roleplay I've seen so far has been one Noble House or the other at the direct exclusion of anyone who is a normal Sshamathian citizen (or even a Wizard of the Conclave, albeit very, very low ranking).

If the goal is to pave the way for the destruction of Sshamath or the exodus of Mori'hyanda and Noqu'afin to their own new cities and Sshamath becoming a ghost-town for Sshamathian lore players, we're well on our way to it. If the goal is to try to make Sshamath a lively bustling bazaar of magic where the Conclave rules and the Charnag Maelthra enforces, we're losing sight of that at a game-breaking pace.


Why do we have so many new players creating characters in Sshamath only to go straight to a Noble House? That is contrary to Sshamathian lore or at the very least such a minor part of Sshamathian population that it shouldn't be attracting new members, especially new Priestesses. Are we trying to pave the way to a Sshamath exodus? Are we trying to overthrow the Conclave and take Sshamath back for Lolth? Are we gearing up towards a House war?


Or are we going to try to build up Sshamath the way the lore in the stickied threads above this one state Sshamath is at present?



As a side note, my lowbie has been killed in the Gloura's Wings already and has been threatened and intimidated outside of the city by members of one of those houses. My lowbie has also been blatantly ignored by full groups of those players because she's a Wizard of the Conclave and not part of their Noble House. Although this is entirely acceptable roleplay for a band of adventurers from a Drow Noble House, it's not exactly conducive to fun roleplay for a low level (but not new player) character in Sshamath.

If other new players are exposed to this kind of treatment, they're going to have only three options, Reroll as a Noqu'afin or Mori'hyanda or reroll as a surfacer.

[Molag__Bal]

Clerics and FS's are the two easiest classes to level on this server, IMO. The UD is a hard place to level. People who want to play in the UD want a setting they are familiar with and Sshamath is a bit of an anomaly in that regard. I'm not at all surprised that the Houses thrive, to be honest.

The Charnag Maelthra has fairly strict entrance requirements (no females, class restrictions, level restriction), so it will never be a massive guild unless that changes for some reason. Not sure what requirements the Bregan D'aerthe have, but I am guessing they are more relaxed. If any non-house group was going to succeed in Sshamath, I would put my money on the Bregan.

[DM Sword]

Lets not forget that the conclave wizards tend to be extremely hostile, frankly I don't blame them for not wanting to RP with the conclave. As a matter of fact, it was one of the major reasons I stopped playing down there. I don't mean to call you out or anything, but rather am trying to get you to see it from a different perspective.

[Vallyn]

Clerics and FS's are the two easiest classes to level on this server, IMO. The UD is a hard place to level. People who want to play in the UD want a setting they are familiar with and Sshamath is a bit of an anomaly in that regard. I'm not at all surprised that the Houses thrive, to be honest.

The Charnag Maelthra has fairly strict entrance requirements (no females, class restrictions, level restriction), so it will never be a massive guild unless that changes for some reason. Not sure what requirements the Bregan D'aerthe have, but I am guessing they are more relaxed. If any non-house group was going to succeed in Sshamath, I would put my money on the Bregan.

You make very valid points. However, it's ignorance of the lore which allows this to happen.

Bregan has a very low population that is actually active right now. There are three active and the leader, Zordem, is most likely quitting the game due to RL reasons, lowering the count to two actives.

Clerics of Kiransalee, Vhaeraun and perhaps even Mystra would be tolerated perfectly well in Sshamath. This includes males. If people would just bother to read the lore that would be obvious to them.

Lets not forget that the conclave wizards tend to be extremely hostile, frankly I don't blame them for not wanting to RP with the conclave. As a matter of fact, it was one of the major reasons I stopped playing down there. I don't mean to call you out or anything, but rather am trying to get you to see it from a different perspective.

I'm not a super-mage or anything. My character has enough wizard levels to be able to call himself Faern and that's about it. He has a low charisma and he's a real jerk to Quellar members most of the time. He can't stand it when the females from the Noble Houses try to look down their nose at him because he's a Jaluk Faern of Sshamath. So yes, he's got a bit of a chip on his shoulder when Jalils think they're Jabressen...

However, he's also been very nice to lowbies in-character.

I go out of my way when I'm grinding in a high level area and see a lowbie show up in scry in the gloura's to send them a tell and let them know that they're not alone down there, even if it is a ghost town and if they need any ooc advice or help finding the beetles to just ask.

[Eviloth]

I know the exact experience Zabel is refering too. However I haven't seen that one mage on in weeks.

However it didn't help that I had 2 other assassins tracking me right after that. Let's say dying by association blows.

[mar3usmc]

What Conclave wizards are you all refering to. There are no PC Conclave wizards, just wizards of the Schools of Sshamath who are under command by thier respective masters and council representative. I think there is a bit of a terminology problem going on here.

To be considered a Conclave wizard you would be a council representative. There are only 10, all NPC's. Then there are those members of the 10 sanctioned schools. Those school members are generally "loyal", if there is such a thing amongst drow, to thier school first, and then the Conclave as a whole. There is strife amongst the schools as well. Usually it deals with control and power over certain trade goods.

Anyhow, you can be considered a Conclave loyalist, meaning you support the power structure in place of Sshamath. An example would be the Charnag Maelthra. Thier members would be considered Conclave loyalists, as well as thier arm for handling situations as a whole. But wizards generally are school loyalists first, conclave loyalists second, and could care less about anything else.

So whatever wizard was being hostile, unless possessed by a DM, was not a "Conclave wizard". He may be a loyalist to them and his school, but it is unlikely he would speak for them as a whole. Perhaps he may speak for the higher ups in his school, but it is unlikely that he would speak for his council representative, unless DM sanctioned.

The Conclave wizards on the whole could care less about what goes on amongst the locals in Sshamath. As long as trade flows uninterupted, and no one challanges thier power, they could care less about anything else. That is why the only "laws" in Sshamath have only to do with making city more trade friendly.

I wouldn't say the Conclave wizards are hostile, but more chaotic and very unforgiving.

[Amal'launim]

I think you can be 100% sure that the DM’s aren’t going to crush Qu’ellear Mori’hyanda or Noqu'afin for you just because you’ve clashed with them =)

It’s not odd Lolth loyalists are flocking around the House or converting, and it’s sure as heck not ignorance of the lore, I’m actually finding it somewhat offensive that you use that term to describe my House’s RP but that’s another discussion... There’s been put a lot of RP into making Qu’ellar Mori’hyanda what it is and it’s a 100% player driven initiative where time has been spent converting followers and preaching the Dark Mothers teachings. I’d actually call this a player driven change, which is perfectly legit unless I completely miss my interpretation of the rules and intentions of this server =)

Lolthist are despised in Sshamath true, but they are tolerated and Lolth should not be openly insulted by anyone least of all to her clergy. There’s a reason the temple of Lolth has been allowed to stay in the city and conduct its rites; you don’t no matter who you are as a drow, just forget the hold the Spider Queen got over the entire race. Ignoring it and blatantly insulting the Goddess (which I’ve witnessed quite a few times myself) will lead you into conflict with my House and it always result in a OOC whinefest when my House strikes down on the blasphemers and the self-professed victims complain there’s no magic hand shielding them from harm. Lolth is a strong presence in the city and even more so outside the city, whether the DMs or some of the players want it, there’s a player driven initiative that’s made it so and it’s been done through RP. I actually think the DMs encourage that kind of player driven initiatives but I’ll let them answer that if they want =)

And just to clarify you can easily play a Vhaerunite, Eilistraeen, Charnage or just plain citizen in the city without having any conflict with my House. What you can’t do is to go up to any members of my House, insult them or the Spider Queen and expect to get away without retribution. The House is strong, and the House has proven strong enough to punish those that cross it. How about RPing that fact, trying to change it through RP, instead of asking for it to be done OOCly?

[Vallyn]

Amal'launim, I'm going to reply to your questions in detail in a PM because there's simply no way to get into it on this thread without causing trouble.

Let's just leave it at this:

Some members of your house have been very decent to roleplay with. Some other members of your house have done things that probably would have resulted in some very heavy conflict from the Conclave and definitely would have involved extremely harsh retribution from Bregan D'aerthe.

For OOC reasons those harsh responses are not allowed to happen. For other OOC reasons, I can't even roleplay with the main cause of the problem to resolve it.

[Amal'launim]

Well to reply to the public bit then:

Bregan D'earthe is a player driven guild. If it cannot force it's retribution on others, then it can't. If the guild wants to punish someone, then it should do so ICly if it can. If it can't then that's IC as well isn't it?

I don't think any of the Guilds in the UD got any special DM support save for the Charnag which represent, and therefor is also limited by, the Conclave.

[Vallyn]

What Conclave wizards are you all refering to. There are no PC Conclave wizards, just wizards of the Schools of Sshamath who are under command by thier respective masters and council representative. I think there is a bit of a terminology problem going on here.

Belados Noqu'afin claims to be the #2 Abjurer right behind the Master in the Conclave (he specifically said he was Conclave) and claims to have a position of authority as such, although he does not actually sit on the ruling Council itself. (magicshisha or something is his login, apparently he's a former builder or former admin or something)

I'm not going into any details about the encounter on the forums; I can PM you the 3 screenshots if you like, but I'll say nothing more about it here OR in the PM.

Well to reply to the public bit then:

Bregan D'earthe is a player driven guild. If it cannot force it's retribution on others, then it can't. If the guild wants to punish someone, then it should do so ICly if it can. If it can't then that's IC as well isn't it?

I don't think any of the Guilds in the UD got any special DM support save for the Charnag which represent, and therefor is also limited by, the Conclave.

My point is that apparently the majority of the players want to be in a Lolthite Yathrin dominated Quellar society. That's not what Sshamath is. The players need to be educated on what Sshamath really is supposed to be like and then make a decision if they want to play here or not. If they all want to be bowing to the Yathrin and the Ilharessen then there should be a city for the Quellars to be in, along with all of the House Wars that go along with that.

But there's not. We've only got one city, and that's Sshamath.


You know darned well that your House is the dominant player-faction for the entire Underdark right now and if you wanted to IC'ly flex your muscles, you could steamroll all of us. Any player-driven conflict would tip to your favor instantly. An IC conflict with Bregan D'aerthe would be a laughable joke, just as an IC conflict with the Charnag Maelthra would be. From a lore standpoint your house is well under 1% of the population of Sshamath and probably less than 0.1%. The Council itself could wipe your house off the map without any support if they wanted to.

The new players to the Underdark are unaware of the lore. They come here, they have a hard time leveling and finding a group and then they meet Istinid. He's epic and he's got great wizard buffs. He's willing to epic buff the crud out of them, then log in Ryll and group with them, so long as they're willing to join up with your House. It's an incredibly effective recruiting tool, although I don't care for it at all.

There are very few players actually attempting to play as Sshamathians. They seem to all be flocking to the House banners. Fine, if that's what the players really want then give it to them. It's absolutely game-breaking to the lore of Sshamath though. Your house needs to be in its own city (or it needs to take over sshamath). It shouldn't be here in the current game-time at all. Let's be extremely generous and say that your House accounts for 1% of the population of Sshamath. The fact that the online player-base is anywhere from 10% all the way up to 80% Mori'hyanda in the Underdark, depending on the time of day, makes it self-evident that things have been tipped far out of proportion of what the reality should be.

That's the same problem that plagued the surface, with the whole "Surface Drow" thing. There's one Drow, Nymas, who "went good" and went to the surface. Now suddenly there were a number of Drow doing various things on the surface from impersonating paladins to trying to "get along" and the DM's put their foot down on it in a big way. It's been stated that "it's far too early in the timeline for any significant Drow activity on the surface, especially goodly Drow." It has also been stated that "Any surface Drow requires DM approval." I didn't want to mention it in this thread, but they solved this problem OOCly by closing the UD portal and force-porting all UD players back to the UD. (That's it, that's all I'm saying about it.)

That's how "game-breaking" "lore-breaking" disproportional populations are handled here on this server. If you want to play something that breaks the lore you need DM approval. Your House's In-Game population has broken the lore of Sshamath. Your House already had DM approval to exist long ago. It's on the map already, literally.

However, it's to the point where you can make bold statements like "You want to deal with us, Bring it" on the forums and know that no one's going to bring it, because they can't. There is no player faction that can take you on and have any hope of surviving, so you can sit back, continue to recruit and continue to dominate IC'ly. If that's not game-breaking and lore-breaking to Sshamath, I'm really not sure what is.

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So how are we rebuilding Roleplay in the Underdark?

Are we gearing up to lay Sshamath to waste and establish Sshamath as a Lolth based society?

Are we gearing up to have the Conclave step in and exile both of the Quellars to another city, whether that makes Sshamath a ghost town or not?

Or are we going to actually encourage players to read the lore carefully, make informed decisions about their character creation, back-story, and IC development and bring Sshamath back into more appropriate proportions?

At this point I really don't care which of the three options happens. Everything that has gone on over the last week or so has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I can't decide if I want to give up on the UD and go to the surface, play an alt in Sshamath and join the Noble House bandwagon, or just up and quit the server entirely. Note that none of those three options involve continuing to play my main character that I have months invested in.

[broham1]

I'd like those screens of the conversation between you and magicshisha. Send them to me ASAP.

[Amal'launim]

Well I guess there’s a difference in our understanding of what lore breaking means so I’ll try to get in on that =)

To me breaking the lore means making inplausible character concepts, going absolutely silly and just wrecking the setting. However in Sshamath there is both Houses and a temple dedicated to Lolth, this is in the lore, so thus far so good. What we have done is make a player initiative to recruit more members and actively spread the teaching of Lolth through RP. We’re not breaking any lore by doing this as every Lolthite in Sshamath wants this. We’re creating opportunities for RP, in game change, and it’s all done through roleplaying. This is not lorebreaking, this is player initiative within the current game setting; what I hear you talking about is a static and unchangable enviroment which I certainly don’t hope is what the staff wants to see this server as.

Consider it a plot if you will, but fact is there’s a highly charismatic leader running around in the UD and freely converting and/or recruiting new Lolthists. The problem is, the plot is working and no one is doing anything about it. Deal with it ICly is all I can say to it; that’s how House Mori’hyanda got in its current position after all. We weren’t handed anything, we were build up from scratch and we’re struggling with the same problems as every other player driven organisation in the UD is. And no the Conclave can’t just go in and wipe out House Mori’hyanda due to in game political reasons, that doesn’t mean some of them don’t want to and it shows in the few events we’ve been graced with. Luckily the Conclave is just as effective at working together as a council of Matrons, so as long as Mori'hyanda doesn't threaten them or their trade... Why would they gather to crush them?

RP is the key I’ve used to promote the prosperity of our House, but currently we’ll never be more than a Noble House in this setting and we got no influence on the politics of the city, we’re only as strong as the House is by and of itself. Despite being a very active House we’re still holding true to that aspect of the lore and if Izzy reads the board, he should be able to verify this from his interactions with my character. He’s held the upper hand and been adressed respectfully by the Ilharess of House Mori’hyanda despite him both being a male and quite insultive towards Lolth. His position with the Conclave gives him certain favourable advantages (and if I may dare to say so, Amal also rubbed some of the disadvantages in his face in a polite manner =P that’s some of the best RP I’ve had on this server)

Now, you take Bregan D’earthe as your example here… They are a mercenary guild and despite the Conclave using them for their own ends then it’s not a mutual cooperation. If the Bregan D’earthe gets in trouble that’s their own headach. Why would you use mercenaries instead of allies, if you have to help them when they’re in need? The same goes for my House if we get a in trouble with a player organisation then why should the DM’s do anything about it. It’s player initiative and I do believe that’s encouraged on this server =)

If you think that an in game, player driven faction is too powerful to mess with, then don’t do so openly. The faction didn’t get there without a lot of hard work and RP. I don’t for a moment understand your problem with my House members, helping out Lolthites with hunting, leveling, and RPing… Perhaps all Guilds on the server should be prevented from helping like-minded individuals? >.> of course Istinid, myself, and any one else in my House will do their outmost to ensure the survival of our members. That’s done ICly too, and quite a few people (Eilistraeen, Vhaerunites and Conclave fanatics) have exploited this offer ICly in the past. That’s good RP too by my book =)

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As for rebuilding the Underdark, then I hope that will be an in game procedure. At least that's what we're trying to get to with our RP. We're not trying to create a new city so it would make no sense for House Mori'hyanda to move at least. They're there as a little infestation of Lolthites, the problem is the infestation is growing.

I'm hoping it will have in game rammifications, but I'm hoping they will show in game due to RP and not due to OOC conversations on the board =)

[Vallyn]

I'm hoping it will have in game rammifications, but I'm hoping they will show in game due to RP and not due to OOC conversations on the board =)

I'm apologize for the tone of my post. I'm bitter about some recent events; I felt like I was under attack and it's coming out in my posts. Attacking others isn't the answer.

Back to the point, I'll do my best to play the arrogant Sshamathian Bregan D'aerther who hates your goddess and all of the Quellars supporting her with a passion like I started him out as. Too bad he can't shut his mouth (and neither can his player).

[CrispyWalrus]

The new players to the Underdark are unaware of the lore. They come here, they have a hard time leveling and finding a group and then they meet Istinid. He's epic and he's got great wizard buffs. He's willing to epic buff the crud out of them, then log in Ryll and group with them, so long as they're willing to join up with your House. It's an incredibly effective recruiting tool, although I don't care for it at all.

Consider it a plot if you will, but fact is there’s a highly charismatic leader running around in the UD and freely converting and/or recruiting new Lolthists. The problem is, the plot is working and no one is doing anything about it. Deal with it ICly is all I can say to it; that’s how House Mori’hyanda got in its current position after all.

I am curious if the one is true or the other, or if the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For someone to log an epic character to buff a party their other character is in is blatant meta-gaming. If that is the case there is nothing ICly about it. I do agree though with the assessment that many Underdark players are unaware of Sshamath's unique lore. It is quite difficult to play any other race down there with all the Lolthites running about calling any but Drow a slave race and expecting these other Underdark players to grovel to them and play as slaves. In many ways it would be better if these Drow had their own city.

[Eviloth]

I'll jump back in, I believe the pc was Valas. I don't have a problem with him and Morf(Zabel) was with me when Valas found a good time to strike at me while in the caves. I do remember he was extremely buffed. However, not sure if that was by his own spells or someone elses. It really doesn't matter, he said he killed me because of the Conclave, so he could a mage/assassin or working directly for him. He actually killed Eviloth, NOT Cythis.

Again, it is hard though in the city when you get assassinated, I know you are supposed to totally forget who just smeared you across the dirt floor(especially at a very low level), but I know this issue will become easier and easier for me and others when there are other places to leave too. However I haven' seen Valas in weeks. He wasn't out of line, I think that Zabel just really wasn't ready for me to start making the ton of enemies I am so good at doing.

As far as Vallyn mentioning Istinid buffing, I am unaware of that practice taking place. Most of the time if I get buffed, they want me to solo and after there spells turn me into a demi-god like status I end up taking on some nice areas that even in groups I would have a hard time. However Ryl is one tuff pc by himself. If such things were happening, it wouldn't be for him to defend himself, he has very little need for anyone else to come and aid him.