Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hello,
It's been said that 99% of the BGTSCC community is using Discord, and before that, Quakenet chat or whatever. Discord is used by many for not just BGTSCC use, and so the general use of Discord has become just more ubiquitous in the gaming community.

But as it stands, the BGTSCC Forum is the only officially supported "channel" for our Community. Maybe that will have to change one day, however, should it change because it's convenient, or...could there be a way to bring attention and use BACK to the Forum?

I've experienced Discord. It has it's positives, like the Real Time chat if you want to just "hang out" online. But it also has its negatives, at least compared to the Forums, in that fuller discussions, history, and a certain kind of focus are often the case of this Forum (and where we benefit).

Thus, if there were ways to improve of enhance the Forum, not only in what it provides information-wise but what it could improve to provide tools and, most importantly, interest from the Community (playerbase and DMs), this would be the time to express those opinions.

I'll add one note: nothing will change unless people make the effort. That is players, DMs, admins, etc. to be present on the Forum, and to apply their BGTSCC attentions to the Forum. If the community just prefers Discord for whatever reason, then the next real question to ask is: how are too many "channels" of BGTSCC information possibly a problem, and should the Forums be archived, and the focus tuned toward Discord plus the BGTSCC official Wiki.

Cheers.

I'm not sure it's possible, since it's an internet-wide problem. Forums are dying out in general thanks to programs like Discord and Slack. A lot of game companies don't even maintain official forums anymore, just official discord servers. It sucks. :/

I've personally always begrudgingly used the forum. I prefer as much interaction as possible be ingame or in realtime.

Winterborne wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:16 pm I've personally always begrudgingly used the forum. I prefer as much interaction as possible be ingame or in realtime.

I definitely agree that, being a role-play Server, being IG and IC is the main goal. However, I also know that the Forum can play a significant role in supporting IG RP...but that isn’t exactly the issue of my OP.

The issue is being the OOC communication, the organization, and when necessary, the follow-up or initiative RP for what will manifest IG.

Obviously, I can’t say what is happening in Private areas on the Forum, both IC and OOC, but maybe I do wonder if the social aspect of Discord chat has a direct effect on what does happen IG?

Hands down, Discord is great for real-time socializing. And granted, maybe more than half the reason people come to the BGTSCC is for socialization, as much or more than playing the D&D 3.5e role-play game. I’ve no judgment or criticism either way.

I just also see many many players going to the Discord channel for information,l and advice, when itself, the Discord is not official BGTSCC (and especially anything RP related).

Is what Discors is used for, between Players, because the rules of Forum use are too difficult or restrictive?

Discord isn't really an internet problem, because most games need the voice chat for team coordination. Forums are not dying because of discord; forums are dying because of Reddit(which is like the ultimate forum).

Discord, or any voice chat, hurts the BGTSCC environment because it promotes clique behavior and metagame. Even if you remove these forums and set it up on discord, you will not stop players from using their own private discord servers.

I dont really use the BGTSCC Discord but I do use discord for guilds and player groups from this server. The forums I use for contacting DMs but mostly because I enjoy writing and recording stories on here.

I suspect its more than simply obsolete functions that are offputting for forum activity.

Our forum culture is not healthy. I dont like what I've seen over the years of in our OOC forum threads, which so often derail and degenerate into exhausting pages of toxic waste, requiring lockdowns to achieve peace. This behavior is offputting for everyone who sees it.

There's no perfect community and if I found one I wouldnt join it because I'd make it imperfect. But I've been stunned from the ettuquite and respect and camaraderie I've seen in other server forum communities, making me realise just how bad it does get on here. Its not normal. Its an attitude problem. I'll be the first to say I've been guilty of it myself. Maybe players improving the way we are engaging each other on the forum here would improve engagement by those who lurk.

It comes down to respect.

Darradarljod wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:28 pm I dont really use the BGTSCC Discord but I do use discord for guilds and player groups from this server. The forums I use for contacting DMs but mostly because I enjoy writing and recording stories on here.

I suspect its more than simply obsolete functions that are offputting for forum activity.

Our forum culture is not healthy. I dont like what I've seen over the years of in our OOC forum threads, which so often derail and degenerate into exhausting pages of toxic waste, requiring lockdowns to achieve peace. This behavior is offputting for everyone who sees it.

There's no perfect community and if I found one I wouldnt join it because I'd make it imperfect. But I've been stunned from the ettuquite and respect and camaraderie I've seen in other server forum communities, making me realise just how bad it does get on here. Its not normal. Its an attitude problem. I'll be the first to say I've been guilty of it myself. Maybe players improving the way we are engaging each other on the forum here would improve engagement by those who lurk.

It comes down to respect.

Pretty much sums it up.

Better Forum Etiquette and User Awareness. You could modernize this entire forum and give it cool widgets all you want but if people aren't going to be more respectful of each other and stop picking at one another you will just have a pretty piece of toxic waste.

So in response to what would get users back onto the Forums in terms of participating, I'd say this giant monkey in the room needs to addressed. At least, that's one of the most determining factors.

Why is Discord not showing the same toxicity? I’ve heard plenty of stories that make Discord equal or worse to this BGTSCC forums.

And honestly, I’ve been online since far before the WWW, and what one sees online, exactly because of the one consistency which is anonymity, never changes.

Regardless, perhaps identifying where the BGTSCC forum does shine, and make more of that happen?

Forums are far superior to Discord for fair worldwide participation, tracking things down and thinking things through, they're inferior for socializing, simple answers and brainstorming. Verba volant, scripta manent, and Discord is pretty much spoken words for BGTSCC matters.

Forums allow detailed and constructed arguments, to ponder, consider, and review your thinking. Writing a concise and well thought out post takes a while longer than writing your first idea on Discord ! Instantaneous chats with hundreds of people are in the realm of reaction more than thinking.

As for toxicity I personally can't tell apart one from the other, things can and did go downhill in both medias, instantaneity is a double edged blade when things get heated. However overall the forums are more often used for serious matters compared to Discord and therefore are a revelator of very polarized groups within the community who otherwise barely interact with each other.

With that being said I have to ask : what is the problem you're perceiving Steve ? Is it a general lack of participation in the forums ? Can't say I noticed that much on my end but my posts count speaks for itself. Is it a more generalized cliquish behaviour ? Something else ? What do you even want to improve or enhance on the forums at all ?

Valefort wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:48 pm With that being said I have to ask : what is the problem you're perceiving Steve ? Is it a general lack of participation in the forums ? Can't say I noticed that much on my end but my posts count speaks for itself. Is it a more generalized cliquish behaviour ? Something else ? What do you even want to improve or enhance on the forums at all ?

Le Valefort! Always about the details!

Having read the transcript posted by DM Boo, I read the discussion about DMs being "more open" on Discord, as a way to generate more interaction between players and DMs. But then, as is stated by Staff, the BGTSCC Discord channel and private channels used for BGTSCC are not official channels. Thus, how to get the DMs and players more interactive on the Forum, where it has the benefit of actually "officially" supporting what goes on IC, IG on the BGTSCC Server.

I just want to pause and say that I'm not criticizing the social nature and enjoyment of the BGTSCC Discord channel. Or the social benefit of private channels. I just don't want to see distraction and at worst any negative effect toward good gaming when we DO have the Forum and the Forum can really be something special.

So let's talk about that, for a minute. For me, the BGTSCC Forums had their "golden days" back in 2012–14, when DMs and Players joined together to create Events and Role-play that manifested both IG and on the Forum. One example that I participated in was The Survival Game. The rewards for such investment were many. One was recognition and support from the DM Team with my player role and effort, both in XP and actual IG changes to the Server. Such investment on my part—mainly on the Forum but also IG, that being working toward storybuilding—led to my draft into being a DM on BGTSCC. Literally, by being invested in RP, using the Forum as a means to "tell a story," and the Staff being behind this DM/Player initiative, I was drafted to be a DM by then HDM TheVoid.

From that experience, and then being ON Staff, I was able to turn my attentions back to the community, where I, as now a DM, was able to support many others, such as the Whistling Wanderess faction, the Radiant Heart, the Zhentarim guilds, etc.

By actively using the Forum to support and build better stories, both DM and player initiated, so much manifested for memorable Role-play...AND IT WAS UNDENIABLY BECAUSE THE FORUMS USE WERE A MAIN PART TO THE STORYBUILDING!!!

Personally, the Forums are #1 used by me to make the IG Role-play have a greater "life" than just in the moment, IG. I think that is super important when incorporating the disparate timezones and availability of the players and DMs that get involved. #2, the Forums provide exceptional assistance in technical support, and the OOC education that comes with this game, this Server. #3, the Forums in general and PMs allow me to further my friendships with many, because simply over time, we have kept the same User Name and obviously, the same interests.

Now, I'm sure many are thinking "But Steve, you're like the #3 most toxic Forum poster we have!" LOL. I admit, I'm into hardcore debating which can teeter on argumentativeness. But you know, "sticks and stones..." and all that.

What I'd like to see is that the BGTSCC community can make the Forums be a HEALTHY supplement to the IG Role-play, and, when possible, make the Forums have a unique ability to provide storybuilding that then has IG benefit. It requires both Players and DMs to utilize the medium with the right frame of mind. I think that for many years now, investment in RP that has a somewhat significant purpose to support IG role-play has gone unrecognized. That should change. Encouragement and some reward to what both Players and DMs put into the Forum RP possibilities needs to be regenerated.

Second, I would like to see the Forums be an excellent source of information to HELP players make their Characters shine. I already feel this is more or less the case, but there is always room for improvement. There will always be moments of disagreement, and some members of the BGTSCC community will end up taking things too personally. It is simple the nature of the Internet-anonymous beast. But at the same time, if you look back over the history of BGTSCC, many at-first difficult-to-initially-accept observations have turned into changes implemented, so...it's essentially about having faith that through our observations and our debates over them on the Forum, we might actually progress.

Third, it is my belief that more concentrated communication in a single place is best, and that too much disparity when it comes to the Server makes it more difficult for the community than it needs to be. Before the Wiki, we just had the Forums, and it was terrible because only 1-2 people could do the Custom updates, and it always lagged. Now, with the Wiki, many hands can keep the information we need as up-to-date as possible. But...having half the community asking questions on Discord and half on the Forums, a lot of good answers are going to get lost and not going to be helpful to others in the future. I just don't agree with that happening.

To socialize on Discord is awesome. Go for it. It's a great place to hang out. But the BGTSCC Forums have much to offer, like Valefort wrote, and to add to that, the great possibility for both DMs and Players to invest in the Forums to forward their IG roleplay, and hopefully, THAT will have a rewarding manifestation.

Darradarljod wrote: ↑Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:28 pm Our forum culture is not healthy. I dont like what I've seen over the years of in our OOC forum threads, which so often derail and degenerate into exhausting pages of toxic waste, requiring lockdowns to achieve peace. This behavior is offputting for everyone who sees it.

The OOC threads can get pretty out of control, it's true. Once it starts to go sideways, there's just no putting the brakes on the mud-slinging until the lock button is hit. I can't imagine how this looks for newer players, although the 3 or 4 that I've talked to recently seem more keen on spending their time in game than anything(understandably so).

That being said, even at it's worst, OOC forum toxicity is 1000% more civil than what goes around on discord. Just, wow. I mean, I get pretty angry at players sometimes, and I do love a good cuss-filled discord rant as much as anyone, but some of the sentiment and comments floating around on that thing... well, it makes me very grateful that we have forum rules, and moderators.

There is also something notably different about some of the role-play posts in recent months... and I think it's tied to this:

But I've been stunned from the etiquette and respect and camaraderie I've seen in other server forum communities, making me realise just how bad it does get on here. Its not normal. Its an attitude problem.

Not to belabor this point, but there are some real under-currents of animosity lurking out there(of which I am also guilty, but I leave it the hell off the forums). Unfortunately this is bleeding over into the occasional forum role-play, as well as manifesting in-game. Our collective etiquette, as it were, is not in good shape.

Instead of players focusing on telling their own characters stories, players will type up an in-character(air-quotes?) perspective of other players characters... which can quickly become, quite frankly, pretty harmful from an in-game perspective(especially when the clique wheels get churning). Forum role-play is the ultimate safety net: a player can type literally anything they want about any character they want(and potentially misrepresent that other players character entirely), all the while knowing full well that the in-game rules afford them the ability to simply walk away from any real confrontation, or consequences.

This is why I try my hardest(and occasionally/often face-plant) to not let my inner-troll out from under the bridge during OOC topics. I also make a concerted effort to refrain from publicly posting detailed role-play about characters who are not mine.



(for which some of the players of characters mine have encountered over the past month should probably be grateful)

Steve wrote: ↑Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:56 am Why is Discord not showing the same toxicity? I’ve heard plenty of stories that make Discord equal or worse to this BGTSCC forums.

And honestly, I’ve been online since far before the WWW, and what one sees online, exactly because of the one consistency which is anonymity, never changes.

Regardless, perhaps identifying where the BGTSCC forum does shine, and make more of that happen?

Discord shows that toxicity. People also use discord to public name and shame people whose RP they considered inferior for not deleting their character after they beheaded them.

Discord also has had devs openly say they want to delete guild halls that are in use for whatever absurd reason they could muster.

Discord also appears to have a history for shitting on elven roleplay, and elven players for wanting to stick to elven lore. Although I am told the last time it happened, Endelyon slapped the person in question. It's a very common thing to see on discord the following exchange: "What happens in Doron Amar?" "ERP" "What" "Elven roleplay"

You can also get discord banned for opposing people pushing for roleplay-destroying character-violating mechanics/rules, and wind up unable to be informed of what happens. There was a time when the majority of changelogs were on discord through "devlogs." Server status declarations still primarily exist only on discord.



As for forums and toxicity - we do need a rule about making posts involving other people's PCs.

Another server I play on has the following rule, abridged: "When making a post that is not clearly a biased journal entry or the like, the player making the post must send a working draft to players involved, or at least obtain their approval and consent of the post in question."

That would prevent a fair bit of issues.

As for forum toxicity - if people stopped campaigning for methods to strip players of their means to roleplay and ability to enjoy the server, the forums could be more civil.

We could add a suggestions-discussion section to the Discord.

Just curious... is this topic:

1. A thread to discuss ideas and suggestions of how to bring players to use the forums more often?

2. A thread to discuss the forums vs. discord thus describing the pros and cons of each?

3. A thread to discuss the negativity of bgtscc discord?

4. A thread to point out things allegedly said in specifics and in the past on discord about things that you disagree with or have angered you?

I thought it to be the 1st one. I don't mean to be so negative but this is typical of why things cannot get done on the forums. Eventually one person will twist the conversation to express something that only parallels the original point of the thread. Understandably Discord is an obvious reason for a majority of server migration as far as platforms go but attacking it won't change people from using it. I doubt giving a few examples of things that were allegedly said are going to convince people to come back to the forums.

All in all, maybe its better to discuss ideas and suggestions to bring players to the use the forums more often such as the original poster had inquired rather than point out why you dislike the other platform. This is also a prime example of how many of the threads end up being endless pages of back and forth with no solution.

((Ged, that is a good idea btw for Discord improvement but I won't comment on it further for fear the thread will lose focus on "forum" improvement.))


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Now that being said. In response to the OP, on the side of media things, I have been working on a thing or two for creating polls on the next media content update. Letting players decide what they'd like to see with a variety of options. Even have discussed a DIY (create your own shield and cloak emblem) contest or just general submissions. All of this to peak player interest in the forums and get more players involved. This is my little suggestion in terms of what I am able to do to help.

I generally try to avoid these sort of boards but figured it wouldn't hurt to post my thoughts on the original question, particularly as they echo some of the earlier responses.

Q: What would get Users back onto the BGTSCC Forums?
A: Bring back some fun and more storytelling

I cut my teeth in RP by play-by-post and collaboration storywriting, and to this day I still love it. It was addictive, coming back and reading the responses from RP partners, pushing your own creativity to write up the next part of the scene, and playing out a story in ways that just couldn't quite be managed in game. While one could argue it would take away from the game, it would bring more to the forums.

It's been a while since I've read a good bit of fiction on here, interactive storytelling/character journals (even I am a little guilty of this, I haven't kept up with my own scenes and journals). Back in TSW, many players were in the habit of posting their character's journal entry after every single day of gaming (and that game was 80% middle aged dudes ERP-ing as lesbians). Massive story arcs were written and posted on the forums, mostly due to the limitations of rping things out in game. There was a different rule of etiquette there too, where players would post their reviews/comments/encouragement on story posts. These might be removed when the next part of the story went up.

I am certain that there is still a ton of PBP RP happening over discord or shared docs; perhaps players should start being rewarded for posting those stories? Receive XP, unique items, or some such recognition for contributing in that way? or even kick this off with DMs, or volunteers, to run a RP story on the boards?

I think this would help change the nature of the forum. Right now it seems to be focused mostly on OOC discussion, rumours (which help point out who is active in game, but doesn't always result in much) and build help. There's of course nothing wrong with this, but it's not... fun. And fun is what we get into videogames for in the first place.