Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I found myself wondering the other day how to give my Wizard some RP skills without giving him some powers that make no sense like Bardsong, Evasion or Sneak Attack. Likewise if you were a Fighter or Cleric who wanted to RP being a knowledge-seeker you'd need to take levels in Wizard or Bard (even a Cleric of Oghma doesn't get Lore skills ).

So I set about to see if there is a generic "skilled" class in PnP without all the frills, and lo and behold, their was the Expert (Unearthed Arcana, 3.5E).


Expert
Hit Die: d6
BAB: ¾
Saves: Two good saves and one poor save
Bonus Feats: 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th
Skill Points: 6+Int modifier (x4 at 1st level)
Skills: All Craft and Profession plus any other twelve skills


Expert Variants (made myself, adjust as desired)

Aristocrat
Saves: Fort, Will
Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft (all), Diplomacy, Listen, Lore (Geography), Lore (History), Lore (Local), Lore (Nobility), Perform, Sense motive, Spot, Survival

Sage
Saves: Fort, Will
Skills: Appraise, Craft (all), Lore (all), Spellcraft

Trader
Saves: Fort, Will
Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft (all), Diplomacy, Listen, Lore (Arcana), Lore (Dungeoneering), Lore (Engineering), Lore (Geography), Lore (Local), Sense motive, Spot, Survival


I chose Fort/Will for the good saves because generally those are the more desirable saves, so given the choice most players would choose them. Also then the player just needs to worry about which skills they're looking for.

If there is no hard cap to number of classes I guess this would be pretty easy to add in, since they have no special abilities? .

A big ol heck-yeah from me. I have made bards that shouldn't have been bards for just the reason you mention.

Allowing the 'Trader' route to gain access to the reputation feat as one of the bonus feats would be nice as well. No more dips into Cleric or ill-fitting guild thief levels.

I plan to make an architect/builder character in the near future as well, this would be ideal for playing that role without making the character something I didnt intend him to be.

I would love to see these implemented. Nice idea.

I like this, too. A nice broadly-applicable class, so could get some uptake.

But please don't give it UMD, or it'll become the new min/max powerbuild 4-level class of choice.

Actually it might be ok giving it UMD so long as the bonus feats were skill-bonus only.

i like this class suggestion as well

also, we really need to fix the lore thing with oghma clerics if possible. they really should have access to all of the lores...

Looks like fun!
I agree on the no-UMD, and might even go as far as to say no tumble, just to truly make it an expert, instead of a dip-class.

Added to that, perhaps some skill bonusses would be fun too.
Aristocrat: +1 for every 5 levels to bluff and diplomacy
Trader: +1 for every 5 levels to appraise and diplomacy
Crafter: +1 for every 5 levels to all the craft skills (since they have little mechanical benefit)
Sage: +1 for every 5 levels to all lore skills
Diplomat: +1 for every 5 levels to diplomacy and sense motive

Things like that. Truly focus on the skills.
I think this would be great for all skills that have no great mechanical benefit, but great RP benefit.

Zanniej wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:23 am Looks like fun!
I agree on the no-UMD, and might even go as far as to say no tumble, just to truly make it an expert, instead of a dip-class.

I was actually already thinking that...everyone will choose Trader for the +3 AC. I swapped it for Lore (Dungeoneering), for those Underdark or just more adventurous Traders.

I don't know if it needs more skill bonuses. 3 bonus feats in 4 levels is pretty bloody good already ><

Zanniej wrote: ↑Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:23 am Looks like fun!
I agree on the no-UMD, and might even go as far as to say no tumble, just to truly make it an expert, instead of a dip-class.

Added to that, perhaps some skill bonusses would be fun too.
Aristocrat: +1 for every 5 levels to bluff and diplomacy
Trader: +1 for every 5 levels to appraise and diplomacy
Crafter: +1 for every 5 levels to all the craft skills (since they have little mechanical benefit)
Sage: +1 for every 5 levels to all lore skills
Diplomat: +1 for every 5 levels to diplomacy and sense motive

Things like that. Truly focus on the skills.
I think this would be great for all skills that have no great mechanical benefit, but great RP benefit.

I’d say no UMD, Hide, Move Silent, Spot, Listen, Tumble, Taunt, open lock, disable device, set trap.

Things that can give mechanical advantages while adventuring. The exception is bluff which can boost feint but otherwise is an RP skill. But it’s worth looking at how much bluff bonus you can get. Like a rogue or phantom with three Expert levels and aristocrat might lose 2 sneak dice but retain all their skills and buff up with skill feats.

My other concern would be taking this class to qualify for other PRCs that need feats and skills. There might be some power build implications in there that we need to consider.

It's probably safe to give them disable device and set trap.

gedweyignasia wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:36 pm It's probably safe to give them disable device and set trap.

I would have said so before I made a trapper just to test how it performs since it was buffed a bit. You’d be surprised how well I can do soloing dungeons with an equal or higher CR with carefully placed traps. And this is just with what I find. Never spent a coin to buy them.

Locksmiths are a professional occupation!
As are tinkers.

I'ld think that playing a Mcguiver trying to survive in a dungeon with no combat or stealth skills outside traps and locks could be quite an entertaining opportunity, actually.

Hide and Move Silently are only powerful in combo with either HiPS or Sneak Attack, and as far as I know all classes with those two abilities already have Hide/MS.

Thaelis wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:58 am Hide and Move Silently are only powerful in combo with either HiPS or Sneak Attack, and as far as I know all classes with those two abilities already have Hide/MS.

Again I don’t entirely agree. Hide and move silently can allow you to bypass fights or pick and choose how to stage them. Combining that with the ability to lay down traps creates all kinds of tactical advantages.

But honestly that’s actually secondary to the issue of power builds. Bonus feats and a high number of skill points allows people to qualify for PRCs With minimal investment. Shadow Dancer for HiPS? Expert would give you the skills and the dodge + mobility with a three level investment. Same with Whirling Dervish. Probably even more so with their acrobat which works better with martial classes.

Guild thief would be another one that could synergies with any kind of expert that provided bluff bonuses. Could potentially be a huge bonus to feint depending on how the class is laid out.

Not that any of this is unworkable, and ultimately I’m in favor of the expert class for the reasons it was initially proposed, a way to gain a bunch of skills (particularly along RP lines) for characters that don’t make a lot of sense to have bars and/or rogue levels. But anything that throws a high number of feats and skills together in relatively short order i.e. three levels to fit the 3 by 20 rule, should be approached with caution.

This is my proposal. Sure you can dip for Cross-Class skills, but you also get 6 HP and basically no other advancements.

Expert
Hit Die: d6
BAB: Low
Saves: Low Fortitude, Low Reflex, High Will
Skill Points: 6+Int modifier (x4 at 1st level)
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Craft (alchemy, trap, weapon, armor), Diplomacy, Heal, Listen, Lore: Arch Engineering, Lore: Geography and Astronomy, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Nature, Lore; Religion, Sense Motive, Search, Spot, Survival

Feats: Commoner Setting

What you're proposing is an NPC class, which is completely different to what I'm suggesting. The Expert class I suggest is equal (or at least close) to Rogue in terms of power, whilst allowing more flexibility in terms of backstory/RP.

4 levels of Rogue nets you:
Sneak attack I & II (equiv. 2 feats)
Evasion (equiv. 2+ feats)
Uncanny dodge (equiv. 1-13 feats depending on your Dex score)
Trap finding (equiv. 1 feat)

vs.

4 levels of Expert:
3 feats
+3 to one save
-2 skill points/level (-8 at 1st level)
No UMD
No Tumble

Imo even if the extra feats allow you take a powerful prestige class, losing UMD alone more than cancels that.

Plus you could always just remove one of the bonus feats, just give them one at 2nd level and one at 4th.

Or as an alternative to cutting feats, the feats could be drawn from a really small pool of non-combat feats like Skill focus (Appraise, Craft, Diplomacy, Lore, Perform, Sense motive, Survival), Extra Language etc