Augment Form - help

[MaskedOne1]

elloes to all,

below is a copy of the Augment Form feat from the wiki.

Augment Form
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Spell Focus Transmutation
Use: Selected (mode)
The character becomes skilled with spells and abilities that allow him to assume another form. For the duration, the character’s base attack bonus becomes medium (unless its already higher) but cannot exceed the character’s HD. As example, a 10 Wizard 10 Eldritch Knight will have 17 BAB.

Affected Spells and Abilities: Polymorph, Shapechange.
Has been added to the feat list of Archmage, Hierophant and many other PrCs.
Contrary the feat description your base attack bonus does not become medium for your level. Nor does it matter if your new BAB would become greater than medium BAB of a character of your level. Instead, this feat actually just treats your low BAB classes as if they were medium BAB classes for the purposes of calculating your new BAB while shape shifted.
_________________________________________________

my character has Spell Focus Transmutation and Spell Focus Illusion, so qualifies for the prerequisite. (and i can select the feat as a normal general feat)
my character also has the Archmage PrC, about to take level 6 as Archmage.
i have Polymorph and Shapechange spells.
the description of the feat states i am supposed to be able to select Augment Form as an Archmage special ability, yet i have not been able to at levels 2,4 and now 6?

What am i doing wrong? can someone help with this? a swift response would be appreciated.

cheers

[MaskedOne1]

elloes,

my current build depends on being able to select Augment Form as an Archmage special ability.

the copy/paste i have from above is from the wiki, and can be found under the general feat descriptions, as well as in the section "Polymorph System", where useful information about Polymorph Focus and Augment Form can be found.

the feat is also available to and can be found under Hierophant PrC, as mentioned in the feat description.
the same is not true for the Arcmage where the feat is not described under the class itself.

i get the feeling that Augment Form was not added to the Archmages arsenal of special abilities yet, if true, would it be possible to add it?

in any case, im still waiting for a response, maybe i am doing something wrong.

cheers

[Svabodnik]

From my understanding, the update note of having Augment Form be added to the feat list of Archmage did not mean that Archmage could select the feat as one of their High Arcanas. Rather, that means that the feat could be chosen as one of their usual feats from leveling up (as in, on a level divisible by 3 prior to 20, or an odd level at 20+ for epic feats). For example, the Ki Step feat can only be picked up as a feat if the level-up it's gotten on is a Monk or Fighter, and Divine Might is the same only for Cleric, Paladin, or Blackguard. Despite meeting the prerequisites, certain feats can only be picked up if leveling up in a certain class, and for Augment Form, Archmage is one of those classes.

Hierophant specifically lists Augment Form as an option for one of their Special Ability selections, while the same is not true of Archmage's High Arcanas.

[MaskedOne1]

elloes,

that is disappointing, but thanks for the response, i will def test this next time i get the opportunity to do so (levelling epic levels takes time). In theory, if i were to raise my rogue level i should not be able to select the Augment Form feat then, if i can, something is off.

you write "from your understanding", my understanding was obviously different, i humbly suggest that if what you write is in fact correct, and how it is meant to be understood, could it possibly be made more obvious in the wiki, perhaps with an explanation of sorts?

guess i have to wait for full RCR then, which is almost unbearable, as i have collected 210 spells by now.

[Svabodnik]

In theory, if i were to raise my rogue level i should not be able to select the Augment Form feat then, if i can, something is off

Not necessarily. Assuming Augment Form is meant to be a 'General' feat (be able to be taken by any class upon meeting the prerequisites) then potentially the note of it being added to various Prestige Classes was a note on fixing it being unavailable when it should be available, rather than designating it to be exclusive to that class progression.

The reason I wrote "from my understanding" is for abject honesty, since I personally wasn't part of the documentation effort for the feat's implementation.That being said, Archmage High Arcana abilities maintain the pattern of a spell slot sacrifice, whether that is for a specific Spell-Like Ability, or for another benefit (like Spell Power's increase in CL). While the selection does provide options, it's not a Bonus Feat.

[Steve]

Subject: Spell / Scroll / Feat Bugs

It appears that, contrary to what the BGTSCC Wiki states—which I hope is supposed to be the truth—Augment Form cannot be taken as an ArchMage feat (ie, lvls 2, 4, 6, etc).

Augment Form

Type of Feat: General

Prerequisite: Spellfocus Transmutation.
Specifics: The character becomes skilled with spells and abilities that allow him to assume another form. For the duration, the character’s base attack bonus becomes medium (unless its already higher) but cannot exceed the character’s HD. As example, a 10 Wizard 10 Eldritch Knight will have 17 BAB.
Affected Spells and Abilities: Polymorph, Shapechange.
Has been added to the feat list of Archmage, Hierophant and many other PrCs.
Contrary the feat description your base attack bonus does not become medium for your level. Nor does it matter if your new BAB would become greater than medium BAB of a character of your level. Instead, this feat actually just treats your low BAB classes as if they were medium BAB classes for the purposes of calculating your new BAB while shape shifted.

Seeing that this may simply be unresolved, I want to make a clear request that Augment Form be added as a High Arcana feat choice, please. And, as a Hierophant “extra feat” choice as well. Thank you.

[Steve]

Actually, it appears by way of written on the Wiki is that Hierophant already can take Augment Form as a Class Feat, which if true, makes it reasonable to have ArchMage be able as well.

[EasternCheesE]

To me, if something can use shapeshifting spells from spellbook, they must be able to to get that feat on their general feat picks.
Dragging it to QC for discussion.

[Steve]

To me, if something can use shapeshifting spells from spellbook, they must be able to to get that feat on their general feat picks.
Dragging it to QC for discussion.

For clarification, do you mean ONLY on a general feat?

[EasternCheesE]

It's up to QC discussion. Please keep in mind, it's just my opinion after 30 seconds of thinking of possible pros and cons. QC discussions take more time and more people to share their view on outcomes of our decisions.

Re-reading the topic from up to bottom, i just want to state that Class feats and class bonus feats are different things.
Class feats are just feats that certain class can pick on their regular progression (as Svabodnik's example with ki-step, which is general feat, but is only available to be taken on fighter or monk levels) vs bonus feats which always represent class or PC flavor thus has limited choice of options (which can contain class feats and non-class feats, by the way). Maybe, we need to invent better terms about it so these two categories are more obviously distinguished.
As of Hierophant and Archmage, as soon as from topic, it states that they CAN take augment form from their general feats, it's not a bug.
At first, i thought augment form wasn't available as general feat pick (i will test if that's correct, by the way, to ensure it's not).

As of allowing it to be taken from their bonus feats, i will open QC discussion. To me, augment form has nothing in common with Archmage and Hierophant PrC flavor and these two are about different aspects of using magic.

Moreover, classes that open up hierophant progression do already have medium bab anyway, so it's useless for them unless someone mix it with low BAB classes.

[Steve]

Sure, we all have opinions.

If Augment Form is a Hierophant special ability choice—the wiki implied so—then why not a High Arcana choice for ArchMage? If deemed only a general feat choice, then removal from Hierophant would be necessary, and then likely creating illegal builds (though whether to grandfather that in…).

[EasternCheesE]

I opened the discussion about Archmage high arcana and augment form, so QC will share their ideas on it and we make a conclusion.

Since Hierophant was allowed to take augment form way before i ever knew about hierophant even existing, i don't have evidence of reasons it was done.
But, even though it doesn't fit PrC bonus feats since:
"A divine spellcaster who rises high in the service of his deity gains access to spells and abilities of which lesser faithful can only dream.

The hierophant is a prestige class of clerics and druids. Hierophants are higher members of clergy and druidic circles who decide to temporarily forgo gaining the highest levels of divine magic in order to concentrate on the mastery of what they already possess. This has the chief consequence of having spells that are much more potent than normal, allowing hierophants to heal and damage much more efficiently and powerfully through understanding rather than calling on more involved prayers."

It's already in and i don't see how it makes them super strong. Yeah, it shifts the focus from their abilities (what many people do by going hiero for simply getting all the metamagics instead of hiero abilities anyway), so i don't think we need to retcon that change.

Though, Augment form is a very general thing that every spellcaster with SF transmutation can get. It suddenly becoming "high arcana" sounds... doubtful from my perspective on logical reasons. I don't say it will/will not be added, i just share my opinion that some quite general thing that almost any spellcaster can take doesn't really sound like "high arcana" magic that very few can master.

[Steve]

While I agree that Augment Form isn’t considered a High Arcana feat based on Source Books—on that note, Augment Form itself appears home brew…—it is also that Augment Form is not listed in source books for Hierophant (logically).

But that Hierophant will get it, keep it, just “because,” is a low bar rationalization, if you ask me. At least come up with a solid reason it should be a quote-unquote Special Ability, when you are arguing that the feat itself, Augment Form, is “…a very general thing.”

[EasternCheesE]

Okay, i just assumed that since it was mentioned on wiki, hierophant does already have it in her bonus feats.
Upon testing, it turns out, she doesn't.

Thus, i change our discussion into opening it for both archmage and hierophant. Until then, i will remove wiki mentioning it until the decision is made to prevent misleading information from it.



As of "just because", you just mix up my point a bit.
If it was already in, we'd leave it in, because undoing things is tedious process so it's better to leave non-gamebreaking thing in rather than dealing with all the illegal builds and possible rant about it. It's not because "just cause", but because decision was already made before and it's not easy to revert it. If we had magic button to fix all the illegal builds, we'd have way more freedom to play with class balance, but that's not possible.

[Steve]

With Augment Form actually not open for selection as Special Ability, as was implied on the Wiki, I also take back a request to make it an option for a High Arcana/“special ability” of the ArchMage. I’ll also find a way to edit the feats text so that the general use of it is more explicit. Thank you for testing and finding the reality of the situation.