Request Player Feedback/Discussion: Deleveling on Death

[gedweyignasia]

Currently, when a PC dies and is not revived (either by a PC or DM), they face an XP penalty for Myrkul restoring them to life. This XP loss cannot de-level a player, so if a PC reaches level 8, then they can never fall below level 8. Once a PC reaches the maximum level, the penalty is essentially meaningless to them, and there are no risks or consequences except those they choose to RP, plus the minor inconvenience of being sent to another location.

How would players feel about changing this so that they can be de-leveled by dying? (Assuming any exploits were mitigated so that Wizards could not use this to expand their spellbook, etc.) This is not a change we are actively considering, so please don't be alarmed. I'm just looking for player feedback.

THE PROPOSAL IS NOT TO REMOVE A FULL LEVEL ON DEATH.

I'm asking how you would feel if the usual 100 XP/Level penalty for dying would be able to de-level players instead of stopping at level boundaries. I'm not suggesting we take a full level away or increase the penalty.

[Rhifox]

It would be better. The current system helps remove any consequences from players at level 30, since they can die a million times and never actually face any setbacks. They'd still probably easily make back any exp they lose from deaths without dropping back to 29 with this change, but at least it'd be possible.

... I'd even go further and say we should add the pnp exp costs to crafting wands/scrolls/potions. But I don't see that happening.

[yyj]

It would be better if gold was lost as well as experience. But I don't like the idea of losing a level.

[gedweyignasia]

It would be better if gold was lost as well as experience. But I don't like the idea of losing a level.

The problem with losing gold is that there's a lot of wealth inequality in BGTSCC, so the penalty wouldn't affect all players the same. Poor players who don't grind much would suffer greatly. You can't make it proportional to the amount of gold they have on them, because gold can be stored on a mule.

It's a very good idea, but I can't think of a way to make it work fairly that players couldn't exploit.

[Thaelis]

Maybe allow players to choose? Call it "Easy" and "Hardcore" mode.

Anyone who knows me probably knows I'm all for harsher penalties, but not at the expense of others' fun...

Some players seem to get more enjoyment from soloing and trying to beat every single enemy in one-on-one combat. It goes without saying that they would be the biggest losers if harsher death penalties were imposed.

[gedweyignasia]

Maybe allow players to choose? Call it "Easy" and "Hardcore" mode.

I prefer to let players choose how easy or hard the game will be for a PC implicitly through their RP instead of by explicit, OOC choices.

[Thaelis]

That's all well and good, but as much I personally would love this change, even if half a dozen players were to leave then it isn't really worth it is it?

Someone already voted that they'd leave if it were enforced on everyone.... (well they may just be bluffing, but it's not really worth taking the risk imo)

[gedweyignasia]

That's all well and good, but as much I personally would love this change, even if half a dozen players were to leave then it isn't really worth it is it?

It would not be. That's the point of asking for feedback; to make sure we give the playerbase the best experience possible.

[athornforyourheart]

I voted no. The system is fine as is. If players want harsher penalties, do it in Rp.

If the system isn’t broke, don’t try and fix it. , with respect.

[Snarfy]

Internet disconnects, lag, and server fart-age make this a big nope for me.

I would much rather see something along the lines of stat damage across the board for X amount of time, and no fixing it via anything but greater restoration.

[Thaelis]

Internet disconnects, lag, and server fart-age make this a big nope for me.

I would much rather see something along the lines of stat damage across the board for X amount of time, and no fixing it via anything but greater restoration.

I'd prefer this too. You'd don't lose months of progress but you're forced to take some down time and consider your life choices ><

[Kitunenotsume]

My personal vote was a combination

At lower levels (such as sub-epic), the current system seems reasonable to me, providing a means to ratchet up while leveling.

However, the current system also provides no practical incentive to use clerics, either NPC (which costs only 500 gp for a spell with a 1000+ material component), or PC-proxies via the spells Raise Dead or Resurrection. Given that you can self revive with practically only a slap on the wrist (particularly at higher levels), the threat of demise is tangibly only relevant in terms of the lost time for the event itself, rather than a lasting impact or lost treasure.
The suggestion of applying a negative level or curse or similar restorable ailment is, again, also trivial as pointed out by Snarfy, particularly when the character would have a high likelihood of simply UMDing scrolls of Greater Restoration or Remove Curse and taking a small tax to the nose.

I would fully support an increase to the penalty from Myrkul to be increased to a full lost level. I would support having different penalties depending on revival, such as half a lost level for an NPC revival, or Raise Dead cast on an epic level character; and with perhaps no penalty from Resurrection or Raise Dead cast on a sub-epic character.

I am aware I tend to prefer harsher penalties for failure because it gives greater meaning to success, but am not about to suggest BG is an environment suited for the death penalties of Sundren or Engines.
That said, if desired I can explain either or both, for context and comparison.

[LivT]

I am not sure that this actually makes sense RP wise. In losing a level, a character would lose certain skills, and could potentially lose traits depending on the level lost. This does not really make sense to me, that being brought back would result in the loss of knowledge or lessons previously learned. This is even more noticeable in higher levels, where it is a long time between leveling; you can't really argue it's a little amnesia after being raised, when they lose the knowledge or ability the character could have learned over a month ago.

What's more, let's consider lvl 30 characters that have been around a long time, and have consequently banked huge amounts of XP; they could take the 15000 xp hit and probably not feel it at all or de-level. However, any newer characters working to be level 30 could die twice and be set back months of work, creating a considerable disparity. One god-teir of veteran characters, and a plethora of new characters who probably will never make it.

Now, I do like the idea of a lingering de-buff after being raised, that will last say 24 hours or until you have a restoration done, if only because it makes the act of healing more consequential, and is a game mechanic that actually encourages more role play without frustrating or infurating a player.

I just see de-leveling on death as being a mechanic that will make the game less enjoyable; yes, there should be consequences, yes, there should be some realism in the roleplay. But mechanically? A player spends weeks, potentialy months at working to level their character, only to die and see it all undone in one hit. Particularly in cases as mentioned above, deaths that are results of internet/server failures and mechanical issues.

It just seems ridiculous to make changes to a game if it's only going to make that game less enjoyable. I honestly don't see the benefit, especially when there are other consequences that can be implemented that would not be so upsetting.

[Ailander]

Honestly i will not vote.

Like Athornfromyourheart said, the system perse "works" and if someone wish an harsher penalty can just rp it.I indeed do it, by rping casting Resurrection like an ordeal for Kelian, althought there is no actual penalty mechanical wise.

I agree on the point thought that "death" seems not seen as one should: Diying is scary. On the tabletop, this is translated with the toon being destroyed and forgotten or bringing him to a priest that can raise him from the dead. The ritual to do so is an exhaustive one, where both the priest and the raised lose a portion of their energies (be it soul, physical or mental at your descretion) to come back to life...this translated in px loss for the caster (togheter with diamonds of high value) and possibly a level for the raised...unless you are lucky and found someone with "pure resurrection" or "miracle" but in IC terms, finding someone like that is just like winning the lottery.

Longstory short? i don't know, would like to see a more D&d 3.5 tabletop features but this one is not really popular or good enough to be bringed into the server...just my two cents that i wished to share.

[Wade]

This change doesn't bring anything to RP, it just makes fuguing more frustrating for players. I voted for #4, I mean, I won't actually leave BG if it was implemented, but I would rant a lot lol.

Also, I really would love to commend ged for starting this poll and trying to see how the community feels about a controversial change, it's a really a large step forth in a Staff - Player communication.

Not directly related thoughts about death system itself:

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To elaborate more, I'm of the opinion that a character death should be a RP call made by a player rather than something mechanically enforced. I treat going to Fugue as a KO or being on a verge of death unless the fugued character's player specifies that it was death, it leads to an overall more consistent and sensible RP from a storytelling perspective. I mean, "I died 5 times last week, not a big deal, Myrkul keeps sending me back" might be a good addition to some setting that is a parody on FR, but not to FR immersion itself, that's why I treat Fugue as an OOC area (rather than the actual Fugue plane), Raise dead scrolls as Smelling salts and deathes themselves as, well, what I mentioned above. It doesn't make the characters immortal, it makes their death matter when it actually comes over the course of their story.