Hellfire Warlock: Get rid of the "evil" requirement

[Wolfrayne]

In PNP making a deal with a demon/devil is immediately an alignment change to evil, you are actively taking in an evil force. regardless of your intentions you are committing a terrible crime against everything good. Good and Evil in forgotten realms are not just "ideals" they are real tangible forces.

[Rhifox]

In PNP making a deal with a demon/devil is immediately an alignment change to evil, you are actively taking in an evil force. regardless of your intentions you are committing a terrible crime against everything good. Good and Evil in forgotten realms are not just "ideals" they are real tangible forces.

Hellfire Warlocks aren't always making deals with demons/devils, though. They can acquire the secrets of hellfire through study or accident, too.

[Steve]

The hellfire warlocks are a secretive group of specialist warlocks who have mastered hellfire, a dangerous energy found only in the Nine Hells.


Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power...

Just quoting, because 3e sources seem pretty clear that a Hellfire Warlock is particularly bound to the Nine Hells, which is then absolutely a compact in/with Evil, something any good-minded Being simply would not do, and if they did, so very likely their Alignment would change, causing the Character and thus the RP of such Character to change accordingly.

Though there is always redemption!! RE: RCR NPC!!! Lol. /zing

[Rhifox]

The hellfire warlocks are a secretive group of specialist warlocks who have mastered hellfire, a dangerous energy found only in the Nine Hells.


Because the diabolical forces behind the power of hellfire demand part of your essence in exchange for this granted power...

Just quoting, because 3e sources seem pretty clear that a Hellfire Warlock is particularly bound to the Nine Hells, which is then absolutely a compact in/with Evil, something any good-minded Being simply would not do, and if they did, so very likely their Alignment would change, causing the Character and thus the RP of such Character to change accordingly.

Though there is always redemption!! RE: RCR NPC!!! Lol. /zing

From Fiendish Codex II:

Entry Requirements
Skills: Intimidate 6 ranks, Knowledge (the planes) 12 ranks,
Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Language: Infernal.
Warlock Invocation: Must know brimstone blast or hellrime blast.

Advancement
Hellfire warlocks enter this class after being exposed to some infernal agency. Witnessing the power inherent in hellfire creates a strong attraction many find too strong to resist. It’s possible you were one of these types, or maybe you stumbled across hellfire while experimenting with eldritch blast.

DC 20: Though hellfire itself is anathema to good, not all who wield it are evil. Some manage to temper the corrupting effects with a strong will and steadfast resolve. The mightiest among them even bend hellfire to serve the forces of good.

There is nothing in Hellfire Warlock's description that says you must make a compact with a devil to acquire the power. Though most Hellfire Warlocks are evil, or part of infernal cults, and devils often target them for temptation, it is possible to learn these powers without an explicit contract.

[Thaelis]

I don't care either way, since I don't play this class and never would.

But it should be consistent. If Warlocks aren't forced to be Evil and they have pacts with Devils/Demons then why should Hellfire Warlocks?

If it were my campaign Warlocks and Hellfire Warlocks would get an instant shift to Evil and Wizards would get a slow shift every time they summon/consort with Fiends. That seems a bit harsh for an online MMO though.

[Steve]

Ha ha!

Since we're having a Quote War (all in good fun!), you forgot to quote this "context" quote from the beginning of Hellfire Warlock in Fiendish Codex II:

“It is not the weapon that is evil, but the wielder.”
—Galena Todrick, hellfi re warlock

That said, it is absolutely correct that 3.5e sources do not require an Evil Alignment to become a Hellfire Warlock. So by all accounts, that should change on BGTSCC.

However, I can understand that the Evil Req for BGTSCC comes from an attempt to "keep the RP" within certain bounds that might otherwise be impervious to the literal Snowflake in Hell syndrome:

PLAYING A HELLFIRE WARLOCK
You walk a dangerous path. Each use of hellfi re brings you ever closer to death. You must be vigilant in your resolve and resist using this terrible magic recklessly. Since you wield the power of Hell itself, others are suspicious at best and downright hostile at worst. They fail to understand why you would use such power willingly and how you can resist its allure.

And more:

HELLFIRE WARLOCKS IN THE WORLD

“The offering of hellfire is yet one more way the fiends have worked their claws into our world. Each mortal who thinks to master this fell power is yet one more fool offering his soul to the Lord of the Eighth.”—Alód the Traveler, planeshifter

Most hellfire warlocks whom the PCs encounter have likely already succumbed to the temptations of evil. Usually min-ions in the service of an infernal cult, they lead groups of thugs or devils against good organizations or to hunt down and destroy adventurers. Only in the rarest circumstances does a hellfire warlock resist these temptations and use her power to advance the cause of good.

Cause, you see, and I know I'm going to get skewered for this, but it is the TENDENCY for Players to choose Snowflakeism, and I am no different! Yet in DnD as it was designed, there is a World—one and ours being the Forgotten Realms—where there are actually rare things, rare Beings, rare occurrences. On the BGTSCC Server World, "rare" is so utterly relative and often not-the-case, that it is only through OOC imposed limitations will we, the Players, get even the hint of rarity in our RP experience.

Since hellfire warlocks are nearly universally reviled, these characters keep to themselves. Their isolation pushes them to test the limits of their morality, and in time, most succumb to the darkness blooming within them. Hellfire warlocks are jealous and petty. They see others who practice their dark art as threats to their prominence and power, so these characters are swift to destroy their rivals.

Jealous and petty? Neutral Evil. "...destroy their rivals?" Does that sound Chaotic Good to you? Chaotic, yes, but...Good?

NPC Reactions
Even those hellfire warlocks who shy away from evil in the face of such wickedness meet scorn and derision in the world. Warlocks are generally not trusted, and those who willingly use the tools of evil for any reason are tantamount to the fiends themselves in the minds of most folk. Hence, most hellfire warlocks conceal their natures, using their infernal powers only when forced. So long as a hellfire warlock maintains her anonymity, she finds others are indifferent. Those who become aware of her capabilities immediately become unfriendly, seeing her as a menace. This animosity extends even to evil creatures, which are often unsure what to make of such a curious character—or see her as a rival to be destroyed.

I mean, I also enjoy playing the loner PC that just grinds and loots with the rest of the playerbase, but...come on! Chaotic Good Warlock PC: just waiting for the Halloween Costume Party at House Darius so they can actually "hang out" with their IC friends...in public! LOL. Yes, I'm being a sarcastic shit here, but that's how Snowflakeism goes on BGTSCC. I should know...I'm just as guilty as anyone (I have an Aasimar Warlock corrupted by Glasya and they burned and scorned by her abuse, and know channels his dark powers to destroy any power that He deems greater than his own...all the while being able to supernaturally cast the Light spell, the basic "Good" spell!! )

HELLFIRE WARLOCKS IN THE GAME
A hellfire warlock is a natural ex-tension of the warlock class. One can be a new agent in the armies of the Nine Hells or an established occultists who dabbles in the forbidden. Hellfire warlocks are particularly attractive to players who enjoy playing antiheroes. This prestige class grants access to otherwise forbidden abilities. This class is also specifically intended for the warlock class, enabling you to expand this potent class in new directions.

So, all this is just my opinion. But Rules are Rules and the Core Sourcebooks absolutely support non-Evil Warlocks harnessing Hellfire. So break down the wall Mr. Hellfirechov!!!

[Wolfrayne]

If we played by Alignment here on BG half the player base would have to reroll because they dont understand their class and simply pick it because its either A. part of a good build or B. it sounds cool.

[Steve]

If we played by Alignment here on BG half the player base would have to reroll because they dont understand their class and simply pick it because its either A. part of a good build or B. it sounds cool.

Good one! So I'll add one as well:

If we played by Abilities here on BG half the guild leaders would have to reroll because they dont understand how Charisma works and simply min/mas PvP stats because a. might equals right or B. beat downs equal mega LOLZ!

/snark

But seriously, the Server has never promoted itself above Medium Role-play enforcement, which includes "sticking to the Sourcebooks." It has been argued for years that this is exactly why BGTSCC persists in the NWN2 PW Universe, and it is kinda hard to argue that is a wrong assessment...no matter how much I'd personally prefer a hard-core-yet-bound-to-Dice version of D&D on BGTSCC. It just would simply take so much of DMs' time to oversee, that it would drive even the most sane Staff member to madness (just like tampering with Hellfire will surely do...so DON'T DO IT KIDS!!!).

[Rhifox]

However, I can understand that the Evil Req for BGTSCC comes from an attempt to "keep the RP" within certain bounds that might otherwise be impervious to the literal Snowflake in Hell syndrome:

...


Cause, you see, and I know I'm going to get skewered for this, but it is the TENDENCY for Players to choose Snowflakeism, and I am no different! Yet in DnD as it was designed, there is a World—one and ours being the Forgotten Realms—where there are actually rare things, rare Beings, rare occurrences. On the BGTSCC Server World, "rare" is so utterly relative and often not-the-case, that it is only through OOC imposed limitations will we, the Players, get even the hint of rarity in our RP experience.

Not going to skewer you at all, actually. I'm personally in favor of the Evil requirement, or at least 'any non-good' (which for warlocks functionally means, allowing CN Hellfire Warlocks). I was mostly just saying the source material allows for non-evil hellfire warlocks, not whether or not we should allow it.

[MadSeer]

I don't really play warlocks, but that change has always irked me. It's an arbitrary decision that's in direct contradiction to the source book. Probably an attempt to enforce a certain type of RP on the PrC, which again is arbitrary, because other PrCs with actual roleplay restrictions are very minimally enforced. No one's gonna care if your Fist of the Forest sleeps in an inn a couple of times. #Freethewarlocks

[Wolfrayne]

If we played by Alignment here on BG half the player base would have to reroll because they dont understand their class and simply pick it because its either A. part of a good build or B. it sounds cool.

Good one! So I'll add one as well:

If we played by Abilities here on BG half the guild leaders would have to reroll because they dont understand how Charisma works and simply min/mas PvP stats because a. might equals right or B. beat downs equal mega LOLZ!

/snark

But seriously, the Server has never promoted itself above Medium Role-play enforcement, which includes "sticking to the Sourcebooks." It has been argued for years that this is exactly why BGTSCC persists in the NWN2 PW Universe, and it is kinda hard to argue that is a wrong assessment...no matter how much I'd personally prefer a hard-core-yet-bound-to-Dice version of D&D on BGTSCC. It just would simply take so much of DMs' time to oversee, that it would drive even the most sane Staff member to madness (just like tampering with Hellfire will surely do...so DON'T DO IT KIDS!!!).

I dont disagree entirely but i do like to see people put in some effort, When i was on the team some classes were still application and i can say from experience that some people dont really give a damn about the "lore" if it means they can build that uber min/max toon that shits on everyone. The amount of Bio's i had to tell people to go back and put a bit more effort in was astounding, Sure its medium roleplay but there is a reason we dont allow names like "Arthas" or "illidan" or "Drizzt" too, some of us like a little bit of immersion rather than "I was a sad boi give me shadow weave plox" etc etc.

[Lockonnow]

I wondering if is a Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep thing?

[Steve]

I wondering if is a Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep thing?

Yes! Raise the pitchforks and light the torches!!!

Those bastard librarians need to PAY for letting such secrets as HELLFIRE escape their Fortress of Fortitude!! Down with the literate! Burn it all down...with, wait for it...that same Hellfire!! Yes, it all makes sense now:

Hellfire Warlock of Candlekeep. Yep. Roll that baby up TODAY!

[Ewe]

I tried doing some forum research, but I don't have the time. I'm sure someplace there's a reason they wrote why it is this way.

If anything I've found more support for limiting regular warlocks to evil as well rather than allowing good hellfire locks:

https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?p=302215#p302215

[Louvaine]

I play a wizard necromancer. What he does (animating dead amongst other things) is considered unlawful and evil. But I'm not being restricted to have to be evil. Creating a non-evil aligned Hellfire Warlock could be just as challenging and interesting experience as creating a good necromancer. I can't imagine nor do I expect for said Hellfire Warlock to be met with much trust, but there are number of Hellfire Warlocks I met during my short stay on BGTSCC that were anything but evil. Moreso, those individuals fought side by side with some of the "goodiest", well known for their pure heart characters. So what gives? This restriction is already dead for those who choose for it to be that way, think about it. It just isn't reflected during item creation, hence maybe it serves as a block for powerbuilding?