Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Not that I disagree with you about the cost but I think there was some time in the past where it was decided not to give +4 on a wand. Also wands are kind of all over the place and could use a pass at some point.


Incidentally the scabbard of greater keen also casts GMW at a high enough level to give you +3. It’s at the UD epic store and I think the traveling merchant in Beregost.

agreed that wands needs a looking at. CL 15 is dispeled in epic areas the majority of the time, and with mob ai changes, they will spam it til you get stripped of the ward

wands should not be CL 15, when it requires skill investment in UMD, or class investment of 3 levels. elixirs are CL 30, but require no skill or class investment to use

Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am agreed that wands needs a looking at. CL 15 is dispeled in epic areas the majority of the time, and with mob ai changes, they will spam it til you get stripped of the ward

wands should not be CL 15, when it requires skill investment in UMD, or class investment of 3 levels. elixirs are CL 30, but require no skill or class investment to use

Either this, or a balance sweep to make it no longer necessary to be bathed in buffs to have a chance at enemies!

Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am elixirs are CL 30, but require no skill or class investment to use

Greater Magic Weapon has a cap of CL 19 on Elixirs (for a total of +4), per Valefort's commentary below. I still have not found the full list of arbitrary CL limitations. However, they seem to be biased against clerics and wizards specifically.

Valefort wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:05 pm The iprp_spells is used to determine the minimum caster level, in case you try to make a CL 1 regeneration elixir it will take the value listed in the 2da. The desired CL can also be higher than what is allowed, which is 15 for self spells, there are also specific caps for key spells like GMW (19), Magic vestment (16), foundation of stone (12), divine power (12).

Additionally, I do disagree with the complaint regarding elixirs over wands, due to 1) cost per use, 2) tedium of creation (want to make a want one charge at a time), 3) weight (50 charges in potion is 5 stacks and 5 lbs), and 4) incredibly limited utility - anyone who can use a wand can probably use a scroll, so the primary benefit is CL, which isn't even an option on many useful non-druid spells.

The limit to caster level on Wands is due to the iprp_spells.2da being accurate and listing for wands the lowest common combination of CL and Spell Level for the item. This was a normalizing implementation by Valefort some months ago, and applies to almost all spells. The same update caused an uproar about teleport, IIRC.

Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 amwands should not be CL 15, when it requires skill investment in UMD, or class investment of 3 levels. elixirs are CL 30, but require no skill or class investment to use

Wands are much easier to use on NWN2/BG than they are in pnp (where they have a UMD DC of 20 every time you use, so most people with 11/13 UMD would only have a 50/50 chance of activating it unless they're a Cha class).

Now, on GMW, since we already have the Scabbard of Greater Keen I wouldn't mind making GMW wands able to be made at the same level (so +3 max). Likewise with GMF. I'll look into that.

elixirs should cost more, as they take more to craft. and you are indeed limited on how many you can have in your stomach at once

that said, imo, wands should not be a lower CL than any potion, no matter how special that potion is, as any type of potion/elixir can be used without skill or class investment

why invest skill pts or an entire class to get lower CL wards? that makes zero sense

Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 3:07 pm why invest skill pts or an entire class to get lower CL wards? that makes zero sense

Reasons for using a Wand over an Elixir may include:
1) UMD gains more benefits than just wands (Such as scrolls and gear)
2) very low buy-in (attainable with 1 rank in UMD + buffs/gear, or spellcasting ability)
3) have the ability to reapply on dispel
4) require a fraction of the weight and inventory space (one space/1lb vs 5 space/5lb per 50 uses)
5) can use multiple at once as opposed to two
6) greater variety since it can be non-self spells
7) lower cost (CL5 wand of GMW is 11,250, 50 Elixirs of same CL are 15,000. taken to CL 16 we have 36,000 vs 48,000)
8) greater availability (can be made by any spellcaster who takes the feat, vs specifically MA)

Reasons for using a Scroll over an Elixir include:
1) UMD gains more benefits than just scrolls (Such as wands and gear)
2) only needs Skill ranks or spell list
3) great availability by spending gold at NPCs
4) up to spell Level 9
5) fraction of the cost
6) higher CL on some spells
7) No limit on simultaneous active buffs
8) greater variety since it can be non-self spells

Reasons for using an Elixir over a Wand or Scroll include:
1) potentially higher CL than wands/scrolls (Some scrolls/wands with minimum item-CL 18 are capped at 15 on elixirs)
2) does not require UMD or class spell list
3) viable on spells up to Spell Level 7


TL:DR
Elixirs are great if you have a specific buff or two you want applied that will probably survive dispels, and are not on the unpublished capped-CL-list.
If you want multiple buffs, or the ability to reapply buffs, or want to save money, or won't want to track down the specific type of spellcaster who also took MA, or almost anything else, there's Mastercard UMD.

For the record, I am not defending potions n this post. For reference, potions have a fixed max CL of 15 when crafted and are limited to self-targetable spells of Spell Level 3 and lower. Any violations to that standard, like Potions of Heal, I still strongly oppose.

indeed. elixirs offer potentially higher ward CL, which is huge, especially in epic areas

imo wand CL should not be lower than any potion/elixir, due to the requirement of actual skill points or class to use them. that investment should grant appropriate CL on wards

Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 7:48 pm indeed. elixirs offer potentially higher ward CL, which is huge, especially in epic areas

imo wand CL should not be lower than any potion/elixir, due to the requirement of actual skill points or class to use them. that investment should grant appropriate CL on wards

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears your argument is that the only significant advantage of an Elixir should be eliminated in favor of UMD items.

If the investment of one or more points of UMD (plus GHero, Cha, and other bonuses sufficient to reach +10 UMD) to use wands merits such a change, perhaps an investment of 5 levels in a PRC should merit a similar degree of improvement.

A Hateful Drow wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 10:27 am I guess that the thing with elixirs is that they give you a toxicity effect so you can't use them indefinitely, but yes, I also think that wands should be watched. They in the end were created with the OC in mind.

Does toxicity actually do anything? How many do you have to drink for it to work?

Xorena wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 8:01 pm Does toxicity actually do anything? How many do you have to drink for it to work?

One works fine. Two starts running a chance of problems. I've not actually seen anyone ever use 3 without repercussions.
The toxicity system has never been revealed and questions about it appear to be sent to "Well go ask an MA" (Who don't have concrete information, myself included), or otherwise redirected into futility. (see viewtopic.php?p=868948#p868948 )

The Toxicity does not affect the MA who brewed it, just anyone else using said elixirs.

Kitunenotsume wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 8:00 pm

Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Tue May 11, 2021 7:48 pm indeed. elixirs offer potentially higher ward CL, which is huge, especially in epic areas

imo wand CL should not be lower than any potion/elixir, due to the requirement of actual skill points or class to use them. that investment should grant appropriate CL on wards

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears your argument is that the only significant advantage of an Elixir should be eliminated in favor of UMD items.

If the investment of one or more points of UMD (plus GHero, Cha, and other bonuses sufficient to reach +10 UMD) to use wands merits such a change, perhaps an investment of 5 levels in a PRC should merit a similar degree of improvement.

indeed. that is my stance. investment into an entire class, and/or skill points into UMD, is a HUGE investment

elixirs were added as a money sink. it is appropriate that those without skill or class to use wands need to pay a significant amount of gold for CL 30 wards given with elixirs

it would also be appropriate for those who have made the proper investments to get appropriate CL wards from wands

Blame The Rogue wrote: ↑Wed May 12, 2021 3:21 am indeed. that is my stance. investment into an entire class, and/or skill points into UMD, is a HUGE investment

elixirs were added as a money sink. it is appropriate that those without skill or class to use wands need to pay a significant amount of gold for CL 30 wards given with elixirs

it would also be appropriate for those who have made the proper investments to get appropriate CL wards from wands

Soo ... what is the benefit from investing 5 levels of PRC into MA along with both prerequisite feats plus mechanically useless skill points in Craft Alchemy, if you can get the same benefit for cheaper and economically viable with the single feat Craft Wand?

Because that seems like a bit more of an investment than the one rank minimum of UMD that server-meta says you are probably going to have anyway.

wands existed before elixirs. wands were nerfed, because staff at that time, did not like the idea of CL 30 wards from wands/items/potions

then a prc was added that can make elixirs, because viewpoints change, and staff also wanted to add a money sink, and now those without skill or class investment, can supplement wards

both can co-exist. imo, wand CL should at least be equal, because of the investment required to use them. the prc can still exist, and make their elixirs, and sell them for quite a lot of gold, and they will sell, because those that do not make investments to use wands, will continue to need the elixirs. that is why the prc exists. to make elixirs, than anyone can use. the reason wands exist, are so that those that invest in skills or classes, can supplement wards

we can agree to disagree. it's okay

Want wards, play caster. UMD is already way too strong.