NERF THE MASTER ALCHEMIST ELIXIRS!!!

[Steve]

Pitch forks and torches at the gate!!

But seriously, Master Alchemist elixirs, being lvl 30 CL buffs now readily available on the Server, is fueling a invincible attitude toward content, as it appears (to me).

There is a 15 CL cap on scrolls, but Elixirs are skewing the power curve. Shouldn’t there be some sort of “reigning in” here? Maybe a CL cap of 20? Maybe a greater toxicity malus? CL 30 is bogus because of 100% immunity to Gr. Dispel. Elixirs ain’t no gin and juice fun ride, either. Where is the risk?!?

*This ad paid for by the White Dragon Emergency Hospital Fund*

[EasternCheesE]

Well, while i understand you approach (And i'm all in for removing Owl's Insight spell and elixir from game), i think that problem is not about elixirs actually, but about the fact you can get gold for most of 1 pcs of elixirs in about 10 minutes. ALso, they are mostly never an option for PvE, but for PvP or skill roll battle because of their price. To me, the source of issue is not in elixirs themself, but in the fact they are super available and only needed when someone focuses on "no matter the cost, i want win".

I myself see elixirts getting substantially nerfed (and having tons more RP) when (if) crafting is implemented and those start requiring gatherable only ingredients.
So, one can't just dump nK gold to make three and post them on auction for more gold.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

There's, I think, only 1 gamebreaking elixir at the moment, it's tortoise shell. +9 natural armor until reset for no downsides save for annoying vfx. It clearly ruins both PvE and PvP meta, letting already tanky characters reach skyscrapper number heights. The only other similarly overpowered elixir is probably Owl's insight, but that one is too niche.

That said, I just thought... Why not, instead of nerfing the whole class, nerf Tortoise shell spell? Make it un-elixirable, add it to the breach list, make it give the penalties it's supposed to give, there's many options.

[EasternCheesE]

There's, I think, only 1 gamebreaking elixir at the moment, it's tortoise shell. +9 natural armor until reset for no downsides save for annoying vfx. It clearly ruins both PvE and PvP meta, letting already tanky characters reach skyscrapper number heights. The only other similarly overpowered elixir is probably Owl's insight, but that one is too niche.

That said, I just thought... Why not, instead of nerfing the whole class, nerf Tortoise shell spell? Make it un-elixirable, add it to the breach list, make it give the penalties it's supposed to give, there's many options.

Because if you ruin those spells instead of the abuse of Master Alchemist what you are doing is ruin druid.

Why so? It's Druid's natural spell and they will be able to use it even if it's not elixirable or breachable etc.

[yyj]

It's true elixirs are strong but they're also very expensive, though for some players it's probably pocket change, I agree maybe adding tortoise shell to the breach list is better, in fact, there's many divine spells that I would like to see on the breach list but that's another topic.

[Steve]

Please debate how or why an elixir should carry the same spell power as an actual spell caster (that being CL 30).

Please debate why elixirs can exist but scrolls are OOC capped. Consider how Hierophant has Runes, and the balance based inside that mechanic (benefitting the caster, not the Economy).

[EasternCheesE]

Just a random suggestion i picked from discord and though about for few seconds.
Say, we make em cl 24 max. That nets us that cl 20 caster with greater dispel has 25% chance to dispel elixir. Sure, CL could be fine tuned to just give a small risk (maybe, 10-25%) and that'll make having CL 30 party member casting that on PC quite viable. Also, it will make AT pilfer magic useful again with wasting the round for a chance to strip magic off.

[Kitunenotsume]

As someone who has made, played, and put consideration to this topic in the past, I have some opinion on the matter.

I have commented on this situation before, as of this thread[link].

[...]

there are also specific caps for key spells like GMW (19), Magic vestment (16), foundation of stone (12), divine power (12).

I have been informed that certain spells like Tortoise Shell, Rejuvenating Cocoon, and Owl's Insight (all druid-only) are uncapped and can be made at full CL 30, so there isn't an apparent consistency in the power-department.
[...]

By my observation, the two elixirs that cause the greatest imbalance are specifically Tortoise Shell and Owl's Insight, which are both Druid spells and not subject to the CL caps applicable to Cleric and Wizard spells. Additionally, these two spells are largely unique in that they provide substantial magnitude scaling into epic levels, in addition to duration and dispel resistance normally afforded by increased CL.

I would suggest that we cap Owl's Insight and Tortoise Shell on similar Cls to those applied to other specific spells, as follows:

CL cap on Tortoise Shell to 16, on par with the limit on Magic Vestment. This puts the maximum AC bonus at +7, rather than the mechanical maximum of +9. Limiting to CL 12 (+6 NAC) would also be within reasonable parity.
CL cap on Owl's Insight to 12, on par with Divine Favor and Foundation of Stone. This puts the maximum bonus to +6, which is still higher than items but less than the +12 otherwise possible at CL 24+.

Both situations would make them still useful, while being both more moderate and removable - much like similar limitation on other Gish-buff spells.
This still actually leaves them stronger than strictly cleric/wizard limited spells, because CL16 Magic Vestment is capped to +4 AC, compared to the +6 that Tortoise Shell gets out-the-gate; while Owl's Insight even at minimal CL is +4 Wisdom for 9 hours and only inferior to CL30 Owls's Wisdom when it comes to dispelling.

Side effects of these changes would be that both elixirs would be significantly cheaper than they are now, but also provide less of a performance peak when used while being more liable to be countered.

I still support a full and official release of which spells are currently capped for Elixirs and at what CL, or a confirmation if it is just those four spells at this time.
I would also strongly support properly correcting the duration on Owl's Insight to an hour, but that is not an elixir adjustment.
I'm also not against banning Elixirs from the Consignment system. I suspect that would make them less a commodity and more artisanal.

[Svabodnik]

Is the issue that any buff can be squeezed into a CL 30 bottle that's the problem, or a few outstanding spells? I don't think anyone would really care about any CL 30 Endure Elements elixirs floating around. Given the precedence of certain spells being capped in CL when crafted as an elixir, that could be a potential fix (as Kit posted above). Aside from that, it could also be that the initial effect of the spell itself is overtuned. I'd rather either problem be addressed individually rather than handling the whole business with a slapdash approach.

[EasternCheesE]

I've started QC discussion about such topics:
1) Whether to cap elixirs at CL 24-28 (to make them subject for low chance greater dispells)
2) Whether to cap tortoise shell and owl's insight elixirs at certain CL (both whether to do it and if yes, what CL are subject to discus)
3) Whether to cap Owl's insight at 1 hour duration not scaling from CL (which means, 15 RL minutes max)
4) Asked Devs about the list of currently capped elixirs so we could provide you with that info.

Once we have any feedback, i will update you with results. Thanks for raising that topic and giving interesting and valuable suggestions, it's much appreciated!

[Vagrant]

To my loving Nerfers,

People love to complain about things that are inconsequential and not their idea. The moment someone finds an interesting and fun angle to this game out come the haters to cry foul.

The entire structure of the leveling system, PrCs and gear is unbalanced. We have mobs of godlike beings standing around campfires chatting about the weather.

Yet someone seems to be having fun and is apparently successful, with one trivial element, and here comes the outrage?

Is your immersion being threatened by potions of Tortoise Shell and Owl's Insight?

Are you sure you're playing the game or are you playing other people's game?

[Steve]

I think there is a game-affecting issue where Elixirs can be CL 30 and scribed scrolls maxed at 15. The Dispel Fix was applied to BGTSCC to counter a blatant misuse of UMD and low CL casting to bolster power—having the effect of demanding inflated and OP mobs and bosses to counter, thus reducing the variety of builds worth a damn to play in said environment—but then a readily available source of undispellable Magic was placed in, with far more reward than risk.

D&D is a game based on chance, that being to win AND to fail. If the mechanics then are such that one is guaranteed to win, mechanically, then the game is undeniably changed, and I would humbly argue for the worse.

[Xorena]

I think there is a game-affecting issue where Elixirs can be CL 30 and scribed scrolls maxed at 15.

If I recall you don't need to take five levels of a class of dubious mechanical advantage, two feats and 20 skill points to craft scrolls. Here is the master alchemist page that describes the prerequisites: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... _Alchemist

[Steve]

But a build needs 11 caster levels for a Level 6 spell to achieve and then scribe, with a max CL OF 11 at that point in progression. With the same logic, a MA needs 11 caster base + 5 MA levels….plus then 14 more caster levels to reach 30.

I’m not arguing it isn’t an investment one way or another—unless of course a player just waits until 100% RCR and voila spawns a master crafter in seconds.

For me, I just see a richer experience of gameplay where if near-invincible power is achievable, the risk to wield or imbibe such power should carry a far greater risk than if your pockets no longer jangle (since coin is infinite on BGTSCC, again, no risk!). If CL 30, then 30% chance of Death!! Lol. You guys REALLY want me in charge, yes?!?

If an Archmage cannot also scribe a CL 30 scroll with also fair risk in usage, then…see the undeniable imbalance to gameplay here? The very OOC subjectivity of it all?!

[Hoihe]

To my loving Nerfers,

People love to complain about things that are inconsequential and not their idea. The moment someone finds an interesting and fun angle to this game out come the haters to cry foul.

The entire structure of the leveling system, PrCs and gear is unbalanced. We have mobs of godlike beings standing around campfires chatting about the weather.

Yet someone seems to be having fun and is apparently successful, with one trivial element, and here comes the outrage?

Is your immersion being threatened by potions of Tortoise Shell and Owl's Insight?

Are you sure you're playing the game or are you playing other people's game?

Problem: If this becomes the norm, then people will demand more difficult content. Soon, what was an optional powerspike becomes mandatory.

Either in form of our new areas mandating the use of tort elixirs to get enough AC to not die within moments, or DMs balancing for tort elixir etc and demanding absurd amounts of AC to have a chance - which will eliminate others' ability to have fun by forcing them to bin their builds or stay out of things for playing a lore-wise powerful class combination that lacks what's possible through min-maxing.

In a few words: the issue is power creep, which can lead to forcing those not interested to participate or be left behind.