Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Divine Power no longer gives BAB, instead it gives +8 AB at most.

So let us imagine that the 2/3rds of your HD as monk requirement is removed from the Intuitive Attack feat. The wisdom bonus to attack still only applies to Unarmed Attacks, Quarterstaves, and Kamas.

Well, obviously, people would want to make use of the feat beyond Monks. So imagine a Monk 3/Cleric 7/Sacred Fist 10/Hierophant 10 build that has solely focused on Wisdom, and Dexterity as a Deep Gnome.

AC
10 (Base)
+ 7 (Dexterity Modifier)
+ 14 (Wisdom Modifier)
+ 3 (Sacred Fist AC bonus)
+ 4 (Inner Armor for 12 rounds)
+ 3 (Tumble 30)
+ 4 (Natural Armor, amulet)
+ 5 (Armor Enchantment, from Magic Vestment)
+ 5 (Deflection, from Shield of Faith)
+ 4 (Dodge Boots)
+ 4 (Shield spell, from scroll, wand, potion, whatever.)
= 63

AB:
24 (BAB)
+ 1 (Small Race)
+ 14 (Wisdom)
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers)
+ 8 2 (Divine Power)
+ 3 (Divine Favor)
+ 1 (Bless...)
+ ...
+ ...
- 2 (Flurry of Blows)
= 43

Damage:
1d10 (If Small) 2d6 (If Medium)
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers)
+ 3 (Divine Favor)
+ 1d6 (Aura Against Alignment)
+ 24 (Sacred Flames, twice per day for ten rounds per time.)
+ 1 (Strength modifier with Divine Power)
= 41~

DC:
10 (Base)
+ 14 (Wisdom)
+ 4 (Caster Level Bonus from caster level of 32)
+ 3 (Epic Spell Focus)
+ 9 (9th level spells)
= 36 (38 with Implosion)

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Erm, if some other build wants to make use of Intuitive Attack, they either have to get Monkey Grip to use quarterstaves with shields or exotic weapon proficiency for Kamas to use them with shields...

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And on further consideration, you would have to be quite daft to remove the monk level restrictions.

Intuitive Attack would be great for reducing the levels of MAD for spirit shaman.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:44 am Intuitive Attack would be great for reducing the levels of MAD for spirit shaman.

Spirit Shaman 20/Hospitaler 10, with Hospitaler taken mostly in the Epics to get those extra Great Wisdom feats. Hospitaler allows you to grab Exotic Weapon Profiency too, and therefore...

AB
25 (BAB)
+ 16-18 (Wisdom with Owl's Insight)
+ 4 (Weapon Enchantment)
= 45

Damagae:
1d6 (Kama)
+ 4 (Weapon Enchantment)
+ 1d4 (Thorn Skin)
+ 1d8 (Flame/Frost Weapon)
+ 3d6 (Storm Avatar, electrical)
+ 5 (Strength modifier)
= 30~

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Anyhow, speaking of that Deep Gnome Monk 3/Cleric 7/Sacred Fist 10/Hierophant 10, if it instead takes the Weapon Finesse feat, the AB will look as follows:

AB:
24 (BAB)
+ 1 (Small Race)
+ 7 (Dexterity [Not counted towards the AB cap])
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers)
+ 8 (Divine Power)
+ 3 (Divine Favor)
+ 1 (Bless...)
+ ...
+ ...
- 2 (Flurry of Blows)
= 46~


So perhaps one need not be daft to consider it.

YYA wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:04 amSo perhaps one need not be daft to consider it.

Except... I forgot the small aspect that the Intuitive Attack does not just give AB bonus based on your Wisdom, it accounts for your character's Strength or Dexterity with Weapon Finesse, befofe adding the wisdom overflow as the AB bonus.

Thus in the case of the earlier Deep Gnome, with Weapon Finesse and Intuitive Strike...

AB:
24 (BAB)
+ 1 (Small Race)
+ 7 (Dexterity [Not counted towards the AB cap])
+ 7 (14 Wisdom modifier, overflow as AB bonus)
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers)
+ 8 (Divine Power)
+ 3 (Divine Favor)
+ 1 (Bless...)
+ ...
+ ...
- 2 (Flurry of Blows)
= 50~


So yes, it would be quite daft indeed. And yes, it is rather silly of me to argue against myself, but it is not like this server has any player left capable of keeping up with me. So it is what it is.

YYA wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:30 am …but it is not like this server has any player left capable of keeping up with me. So it is what it is.

Monkey Man is back! Let us rejoice!!

Excellent work.

YYA wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:30 am

YYA wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:04 amSo perhaps one need not be daft to consider it.

Except... I forgot the small aspect that the Intuitive Attack does not just give AB bonus based on your Wisdom, it accounts for your character's Strength or Dexterity with Weapon Finesse, befofe adding the wisdom overflow as the AB bonus.

I mean, it's basically Weapon Finesse for WIS, implementation limits notwithstanding...

Does this also apply to Zen-Archery?

If you have Weapon Finesse you will get the difference between your Wisdom and the higher of (Str or Dex). A 14 Str, 20 Dex, 30 Wis character with weapon finesse will get a +5 (30 Wis - 20 Dex) AB bonus. Without weapon finesse the bonus for the same character would be +8 (30 Wis - 14 Str).

GIB intuitive attack with no monk level restrictions

Terankar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:03 am Does this also apply to Zen-Archery?

Yes. Zen Archery is very much like Weapon Finesse, in that you add the better of your WIS and DEX scores to ranged AB... but like Intuitive Attack, it's not a vanilla feat, which would make it subject to the same stacking rules as Intuitive Attack. A 20-DEX, 30-WIS character with Zen Archery would get +5 AB from DEX, and another +5 AB from WIS. (The former bonus would not be subject to the +20 AB cap.)

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:14 am GIB intuitive attack with no monk level restrictions

I would actually quite like that on Amaetha (her offense stinks right now, since her STR modifier never goes past 14 unless she wildshapes, and she's got too many PrC and monk levels to qualify for any decent forms), but YYJ may be right about it being too powerful with some builds.

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:21 amYes. Zen Archery is very much like Weapon Finesse, in that you add the better of your WIS and DEX scores to ranged AB... but like Intuitive Attack, it's not a vanilla feat, which would make it subject to the same stacking rules as Intuitive Attack. A 20-DEX, 30-WIS character with Zen Archery would get +5 AB from DEX, and another +5 AB from WIS. (The former bonus would not be subject to the +20 AB cap.)

Zen Archery is actually a stock NWN2 feat, a therefore it does not suffer from the same mechanical limitations as the custom Intuitive Attack feat (Zen Archery for melee weapons) suffers from. For example, if a character with Intuitive Attack or any of the Melee Weapon Mastery feats dies, this character might have to either re-equip or remove a weapon in order to re-apply the bonus AB, which counts towards the AB bonus cap of 20. With Zen Archery, it works just as Weapon Finesse does, meaning that you do not have to re-equip or remove a weapon to make sure that the feat is in effect.

Also, some minor corrections, Implosion has +3 to DC and the Deep Gnome build I used as an example cannot innately have wisdom modifier of 14 and the Epic Spell focus on this server. Even if you start with 20 wisdom, you would need to put all ability score increases into wisdom and spend your all five epic feats on Great Wisdom to end up at 32, which would be 36 with the +4 Wisdom item or spell, and thus result with an innate Wisdom modifier of mere +13. My bad. Anyhow, if you spend two of those epic feats on Vampiric Feast and Epic Spell Focus, you would end up at +12 wisdom, which could be bumped up to +16 through the use of a Owl's Insight Elixir. Anyhow, it doesn't really have a such a big effect in things due to the close proximity of the AB bonus cap.

Anyhow, in favour of the change, as an attempt to convince thaty it was not something so daft once again.

Before the changes to Divine Power, our Deep Gnome Monk 3/Cleric 7/Sacred Fist 10/Hierophant 10 would have had the following AB:

30 (BAB) (Divine Power)
+ 1 (Small Race)
+ 7 (Dexterity [Not counted towards the AB cap from Weapon Finesse])
+ 9 (16 Wisdom modifier, with Elixir of Owl's Insight, overflow as AB bonus) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 9/20)
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 13/20)
+ 3 (Divine Favor) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 16/20)
+ 1 (Bless...) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 17/20)
+ 2 (Potion of Heroism... ) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 19/20)
+ 1 (Haste, wand or potion) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 20/20)
- 2 (Flurry of Blows)
= 56

And this build would have had a 6 base attacks due to 30 BAB, 2 more from the use of Flurry, and 1 on top of it all from Haste: thus a total of 9 attacks per round, of which four are made at the build's highest AB bonus.

But if we look at the server as it is right now:

24 (BAB)
+ 1 (Small Race)
+ 7 (Dexterity [Not counted towards the AB cap from Weapon Finesse])
+ 9 (16 Wisdom modifier, with Elixir of Owl's Insight, overflow as AB bonus) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 9/20)
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 13/20)
+ 8 7 (Divine Power) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 20/20)
+ 3 0 (Divine Favor) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
+ 1 0 (Bless...) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
+ 2 0 (Potion of Heroism... ) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
+ 1 0 (Haste, wand or potion) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
- 2 (Flurry of Blows)
= 50

And this build would only have 5 base attacks due to 24 BAB, 2 more from the use of Flurry, and 1 on top of it all from Haste: thus a total of 8 attacks per round, of which four are made at the build's highest AB bonus. If you compare it to how things used to be, the current state of affairs is not as powerful as it used to be, namely the old build would have had 5 attacks done at AB of 50 or more, where as the current situation of the build only allows it to get 4 attacks done at that AB of 50.

It should also be said that the you do get much out of the Sacred Flames, only two uses per rest. So a lot of your damage is actually based on your equipment and constant casting of Divine Favor and Aura Versus Alignment. You know, it is a hassle, and things have damage resistances that will soak up the damage you dfeal -- so what if you land some hits, at best you tickle some mobs on this server. It all sounds fun on paper, but try playing one, and you will just bore yourself to death.

Thus, the change would not be so daft after all.

YYA wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:58 am It should also be said that the you do get much out of the Sacred Flames, only two uses per rest. So a lot of your damage is actually based on your equipment and constant casting of Divine Favor and Aura Versus Alignment. You know, it is a hassle, and things have damage resistances that will soak up the damage you dfeal -- so what if you land some hits, at best you tickle some mobs on this server. It all sounds fun on paper, but try playing one, and you will just bore yourself to death.

Thus, the change would not be so daft after all.

Except that you only really need that damage output when pitted against a boss monsters, a group of monsters which you can gather and herd due to increase in movement speed and your high wisdom based AC and take out in one go under your high DC Storm of Vengeance while pummelling everything to dust by turning on your Sacred Flames, and let us be honest -- no would want to fight that build in PvP due to its combination of high damage/AB/AC, in addition to Divine spell casting that provides healing and immunities.

So it would be rather daft thing to change, and you know this server nerfed some of the Barbarian changes because people who never played the stock Barbarians complained about Barbarian builds.

YYA wrote: ↑Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:06 amSo it would be rather daft thing to change, and you know this server nerfed some of the Barbarian changes because people who never played the stock Barbarians complained about Barbarian builds.

I don't care, just look at this:

24 (BAB)
+ 1 (Small Race)
+ 7 (Dexterity [Not counted towards the AB cap from Weapon Finesse])
+ 9 (16 Wisdom modifier, with Elixir of Owl's Insight, overflow as AB bonus) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 9/20)
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 13/20)
+ 8 7 (Divine Power) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 20/20)
+ 3 0 (Divine Favor) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
+ 1 0 (Bless...) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
+ 2 0 (Potion of Heroism... ) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
+ 1 0 (Haste, wand or potion) (Exceeds total AB bonus cap)
- 2 (Flurry of Blows)
= 50

How is it a genuine improvement from the current state of affairs where you can already get something like this?

24 (BAB)
+ 1 (Small Race)
+ 7 (Dexterity [Not counted towards the AB cap from Weapon Finesse])
+ 4 (Enchantment Gloves/Bracers) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 4/20)
+ 8 (Divine Power) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 12/20)
+ 3 (Divine Favor) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 15/20)
+ 1 (Bless...) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 16/20)
+ 2 (Potion of Heroism... ) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 18/20)
+ 1 (Haste, wand or potion) (Brings the total AB bonus cap to 19/20)
- 2 (Flurry of Blows)
= 49

Is that one point of AC really going to make or break this entire server, and in order to get it, you have to spend a feat on it? In all due essence, it is no different to taking a Weapon Focus feat -- and that you have to spend less time buffing up since most of those spells no longer offer any noticiable boost to AB. There is probably some source of AB I have forgotten to reach that exact same 50 BAB.

And let us not kid ourselves, you can pull off that build right now. Just make use of the RCR period, and see if a min maxed Deep Gnomes are truly the end all, be all, of the builds imaginable. Not to mention that anyone who is not going to roll out the exact same Deep Gnome build will be inferior, they will often have lesser racial bonus to dexterity, which means that the AB bonus cap will be met all the sooner, and if someone tries to make up for it with a race that has a higher strength instead, it will cut down several points from AC for minor boost to damage per hit. If they go for a build with a race that lacks a racial wisdom modifier, well, the AB bonus cap will still be met by casting a few handfuls of spells. But no matter what they do, each and every build will be inferior to our min-maxed Deep Gnome Sacred Fist.

And as for any other build, you would still be stuck to useing either Quarterstaves (two-handed, so -2 to AB with Monkey Grib if you want shield for AC), Kama (Exotic Weapon Proficiency or potentially suffer multiclassing experience penalty from a class that grants it), or unarmed, which once again only make sense in a mechanical perspective if you go for Sacred Fist.

Is it really a such violation of server sensibilities if you have a handful of 'priestly' characters going around with sticks, or weirdly shaped sickles? Not really, no.

Oh, and let us think of Phantoms -- you know the WISDOM BASED ROGUE BASE CLASS THAT WAS ADDED AND NEVER REALLY USED BY ANYONE. You know, they could make use of the Flensing Strike feat, they could spend feats to get Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist, which would open up the use of Fiery Fist or Fiery Ki Defense, and Ki Step.

So, can anyone present an actual detriment to this change, a reason not to lift the monk based restrictions from Intuitive Attack?

Did you just make an entire topic dedicated to you, countering your own logic?

Could we not instead say that 20 Phantom could also make use of the Int attack feat as well?