Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

The shapechange spell. Is it worth taking if I'm basically a pure caster and do not dip into non-caster classes for some weird feats? Or is the spell meant only for builds that specialize for it? I'm mostly eyeing the Planetar form as it would be fun for my character.

Let's say I'm a sorcerer with some spell focused prestige class like archmage, frostmage or scholar (not sure what I want yet). Let's also say that I take epic spell focus transmutation and the augmented form feat. Will this be enough to make the shapechange worth taking? Now I don't need it to be extremely powerful, but something that's still usable in some situations. Moreover, are there any other feats that might improve its power?

The question is more about... Are you going to level up your character from level one, or are you just going to RCR to 30?

Polymorph Self (Level 4, can be swapped away later) gives you access to Troll, with its 5 points of regeneration. Augment Form boosts your low BAB classes to give medium BAB while polymorphed, and it makes grinding areas more pleasant thing to do. You can just duke it out, like any old melee character would. And yes, Shapechange can be worth it, if you want to have that melee longevity... Just apply your normal defensive buffs, and you are good to go, with Greater Heroism for little extra AB.

But take note that something like: Sorcerer 6/Archmage 4/Frost Mage 10/Arcane Scholar 10 will have BAB of 21, which gives you a total of 6 attacks with Haste. Thus, if you can spare 13 Strength, you can grab Northlander Hewing feat and get double strength damage with your attacks, which will make grinding more pleasant as you just deal more damage per hit. So for example:

Nightwalker AB:
21 (BAB)
+ 16 (Nightwalker Strength, with Bull's)
+ 4 (Greater Heroism)
+ 1 (Haste)
= 42

Night Walker damage per hit:
2d6 (Creature Weapon, one handed)
+ 16 (Strength modifier)
+ 16 (Northlander Hewing)
= 39~

So just buff up, and go melee.

With no Augment Form and no high BaB classes , I still find the spell very useful on my mage. It's a way to cast a single spell to do consistent damage over an extended period. A sorcerer/archmage/ASoC/frost mage might have enough spells for days that the persistent mediocre damage becomes trivial. Sorcerer also has lot of good spells and few spell slots, so keep that in mind as well.

Zkenic wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:04 pm Sorcerer also has lot of good spells and few spell slots, so keep that in mind as well.

Shapechanging Sorcerer is awful, because of the spell slot loss on each change.

Overall I'd say Shapechange is an insanely useful spell. It's obviously a situational thing, but defiantly something I have known to all my mages

I made this small video. I got down to half health after stepping on a trap, so i used polymorph and was able to not only heal, but also deal with the frost giants. The build has 0 synergies with polymorph other than a spell focus Transmutation (+1 AC ). So i would say that polymorph is useful even if you lose some spells. Just dont go in and out of shape all the time. BTW cant the loss of spells be fixed? Valefoooooorttt?????

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:15 pmBTW cant the loss of spells be fixed? Valefoooooorttt?????

Not for spontaneous casters, I'm afraid. This is an area where Wizard is superior to Sorcerer.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:46 am

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:15 pmBTW cant the loss of spells be fixed? Valefoooooorttt?????

Not for spontaneous casters, I'm afraid. This is an area where Wizard is superior to Sorcerer.

I suspect that it can be worked around, though... if you're very careful about it.

Spell slot loss occurs for one of three reasons:

• You lost your racial CHA modifier, causing you to lose slots either on shifting into the new form (if aasimar/drow/etc.) or on shifting out of it (if tiefling/genasi/etc.). (This can be worked around by playing a race with no racial CHA, positive or negative.)
• You very briefly lost/unequipped your CHA item, causing you to lose slots corresponding to a +1 or +2 increase to your CHA modifier. (This can be worked around by casting/UMDing/drinking Eagle's Splendor before shifting, or by not wearing a CHA item. For obvious reasons, the former workaround is preferred. )
• You very briefly lost/unequipped your spell slot item, causing you to lose all the slots it gave you. (This can only be worked around by not wearing spell slot items. On the bright side, you're a sorcerer, so this hurts you less than it hurts wizards. Plus, not hunting for spell slot items means you can focus extra attention on any other items your build might find useful.)

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:46 am

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:15 pmBTW cant the loss of spells be fixed? Valefoooooorttt?????

Not for spontaneous casters, I'm afraid. This is an area where Wizard is superior to Sorcerer.

It could be fixed if on Polymorphing, the Sorcerer was granted +6 CHA, and when assuming Original Form, it was removed. That’s the running theory at least.

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:53 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:46 am

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:15 pmBTW cant the loss of spells be fixed? Valefoooooorttt?????

Not for spontaneous casters, I'm afraid. This is an area where Wizard is superior to Sorcerer.

It could be fixed if on Polymorphing, the Sorcerer was granted +6 CHA, and when assuming Original Form, it was removed. That’s the running theory at least.

That doesn't help with spell slot items.

Theodore01 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:54 am

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:53 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:46 am

Not for spontaneous casters, I'm afraid. This is an area where Wizard is superior to Sorcerer.

It could be fixed if on Polymorphing, the Sorcerer was granted +6 CHA, and when assuming Original Form, it was removed. That’s the running theory at least.

That doesn't help with spell slot items.

You’re right, it doesn’t. But a high CHA Sorcerer has no need for extra spell items.

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:53 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:46 am

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:15 pmBTW cant the loss of spells be fixed? Valefoooooorttt?????

Not for spontaneous casters, I'm afraid. This is an area where Wizard is superior to Sorcerer.

It could be fixed if on Polymorphing, the Sorcerer was granted +6 CHA, and when assuming Original Form, it was removed. That’s the running theory at least.

Noooo, that would only make things worse.

You need to keep your CHA modifier stable throughout the whole thing. Even a momentary change is enough to lose spell slots. Adding a blanket +6 enhancement would mean everyone received an otherwise-unattainable +3 boost to their CHA modifier... which they would then lose (along with any spell slots that their other buffs couldn't preserve) when they shifted out of shape.

The problem is that changing a PC's CHA score, or replacing their spell slot items, cannot be done as a single, atomic operation. Instead, the polymorphing process works like this:

1. Take away your racial CHA (without replacing it). This may cost you a few spell slots if you're a drow, aasimar, or other race with +CHA.
2. Give you a "polyspellfix" item akin to the Silver Shards from the OC. IIRC, this item will contain any properties that need to be merged into your new form, such as +CHA and spell slots. If the system's been designed cleverly enough, you won't get spontaneous spell slots off the polyspellfix item, since that would cause you to lose spell slots twice. (On another note, I should actually test whether Shali loses spell slots from her CHA item as well as her spell slot items. It's been a while. ) It will not, however, contain weapon properties, so you might still experience a brief CHA change if you're using a CHA staff?
3. Take away your CHA item. Now that I'm thinking about this more carefully, this probably doesn't cost you any spell slots except maybe if it was your weapon.
4. Take away your spell slot items. This will cost you those spell slots, no ifs, ands, or buts.
   
   Now, wait until you shift back, and advance to step 5:
5. Give back your racial CHA. This may cost you a few spell slots if you're a tiefling, genasi, or other race with -CHA.
6. Give back your CHA item. This won't do anything.
7. Give back your spell slot items. This won't do anything.
8. Take away the polyspellfix item. Unless spontaneous spell slots got merged into it, this will not do anything.

At no point can you correct for steps 1, 4, and 5, because you'd need to be able to perform those corrections between the executions of those respective steps, and the spell slot updates they trigger. If we could inject ourselves into that process, I suspect we already would have done so.

A Sorcerer or Spirit Shaman doesn’t lose spell slots, they lose spell castings per day, in/out the Polymorphing process.

A spontaneous caster already gains extra castings it cannot actually use when even casting Eagles Splendor or Owls Wisdom, after rest, and where the +4 bump adjust the Bonus Spells per day based on Ability mod.

You see the greatest example of this when using Spirit Shaman and casting Owls Insight.

Steve wrote: ↑Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:59 am A Sorcerer or Spirit Shaman doesn’t lose spell slots, they lose spell castings per day, in/out the Polymorphing process.

Yes. Those castings are analogous to the spell slots of prepared casters, and every spell slot item calls them "spell slots". What's the problem?

A spontaneous caster already gains extra castings it cannot actually use when even casting Eagles Splendor or Owls Wisdom, after rest, and where the +4 bump adjust the Bonus Spells per day based on Ability mod.

You see the greatest example of this when using Spirit Shaman and casting Owls Insight.

Okay, yes, but you're missing a big part of the problem here.

When you equip an item with +HP, you aren't magically healed for that extra HP. However, when you unequip the item, you're also not magically damaged for that HP, so it works. (Except your HP isn't even clamped to the new maximum, so it doesn't quite work all the way.)

Bonus spontaneous spell slots (whether from +CHA/WIS effects or from spell slot items) work differently. You still don't magically get new spell slots out of nowhere, but you do lose some when the effect ends. It's ridiculous, I know - the bonus slots should be the first ones consumed, and you should only lose spell slots if you have more than your current stats/equipment allow. But that's not how it works, and because the behavior is hardcoded, there's nothing we can do about it.

Don't just take my word for it, though. Go ahead and equip/unequip a +2CHA item on a sorcerer a bunch of times, or a +2WIS item on a shaman. Heck, cast Owl's Insight on yourself, dismiss it, and see what happens!

Subject: Problem with Sorcerer spells and Polymorph

Ariella wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:15 pm It's to do with the racial modifiers and the fix in place with it. Cast Eagles splendor on your self and changing shape should have no effect on spell slots.