Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

So this is something that has been a long time annoyance of mine, which is half-drow are forced to be underdark characters here without exception. The reason why it is an annoyance is because that is a gross misrepresentation of the race. Nor does it actually account for the accuracy of the server's own custom lore. So currently in Baldurs gate and Duchal lands half-drow are not allowed by the laws of the land because of previous RP that took place within Duchal lands. But what about the rest of the sever, the entire sword coast, Amn and the parts of the north that the server has? So, there is no laws that actively prevent a half-drow from being anywhere else on the server. Really they should be treated like genasi and tiefling allowed to choose at character creation if they are going to be living on the surface or underdark. And well there is a lot of canonical lore that supports such a claim, according to the books about Faerun, half-drow are not region locked to the UD.

Pg.62 Races of Faerun states that half-drow have the following regions: Dambrath, Elf (drow), Half-Drow, The North.

Out of all of these Dambrath and the north are the most straighforward. Dambrath is a country detailed in the Shining South Faerun campaign book, the short version is that it is a surfacer country ruled by half-drow. The north is also a relativly simple explanation except its an entire region, not just one country, its also a region that shares parts of the current map on the server. The Greypeak Mountains are considered part of The North as is the High Moor, Misty Forest, and Serpent Hills. The sword coast is made up of The North region and the Western Heartlands, being that The North is part of half-drow's source book choices for regions it really would be fitting that they are allowed to be surfacers, because well that is what they primarily are in all sourcebooks.

For the Elf (drow) region you actually have to look at Pg.34 and Pg.38 of Races of Faerun. Page 34 states regions: Elf (drow), Cormanthor Drow. And in Pg. 38 it gives an example of a surface dwelling drow from Clan Auzkovyn or House Jaelre. So the Elf (drow) region is almost self explanitory, it's the underdark. So yes absolutely half-drow should be able to be an Underdark character. But the same also holds true for bieng a half-drow from the Cormanthor. Now Pg. 38 has a bit of subtext in it, using two vhaerunite drows clan's as examples it does not explain that Clan Auzkovyn during the timeline the server is set would be living in the High Forest not the Cormanthor. Clan Auzkovyn moves to the Cormanthor after they loose their war with the wood elves in the High Forest. The high forest is of course part of The North, but the book does not actually clarify timelines.

And the unclear and interesting bit the Half-Drow region. The thing is it's not actually clearly defined in any book what the half-drow region is. So, what exactly is it? Well, we know its at least not Dambrath, Elf (drow), Cormanthor Drow, The North. Because those already got their own entries, there really is no point in stating the same thing twice in one entry. Now there are a few sentences within the text that could potentially explain what it is, though really its my opinion and conjecture. Though fair warning what is written is pretty dark.

The book reads for their origins And for history And outlook These are the only lines that are not specific to Dambrath or the Underdark in regards to Origin, history, and outlook. But if you didn't read it, basically outside of Dambrath half-drow canonically have a very rough time of living, they face bigotry and discrimination wherever they are from and are treated as second class citizens or worse. But this essentially covers not only The North but other places not specified in regions such as Aglarond. The reason I state Aglarond is because on Pg. 60 of Races of Faerun it says thus about Aglarond and it's religion:

The language choices that half drow get on Pg. 62 of Races of Faerun says thus The explanation here is that half-drow certainly do not automatically have their region locked to the Underdark, but really could be from anywhere on Faerun. Even places that are not specifically listed as a region, such as Aglarond. Or even other locations around Faerun that are either in close geographic proximity to Drow cities and or do frequent trade with drow Cities you know with slaves and such. Calimshan and Gallidurith, Thay and Undrek'thoz. Thay is suspiciously close to Aglarond too. Just sayin.

But this all leads back to how the server treats half-drow, which is the exact same as drow. Even though canonically it's not the same, there are more half-drow on the surface than in the Underdark. Half-drow according to sourcebooks are a surface race that has the option of being from the underdark. They are not baby monsters that are locked away in the deepest depths of the earth never to see the light of day. So really I am only asking for what is already written in sourcebooks, and the server already comes in contact with one of the region's a half-drow has access to. How the server portrays half-drow right now is just inaccurate, and really weird when you can play grey-orcs on the surface.

I agree 1000%. In my time here, Ive never heard of a plausible reason for limiting half drow to the UD. Fiendish tails and horns are fine though apparently lol

Half Drow should be able to start on the surface in my opinion. I think it would fall under the same category as orcs were.

I support the idea.

There are way too many Tieflings on the surface. There, I said it!

I would vote that Half-drow need to start in the UD. But they can transition to the surface with RP and DM approval upon satisfactory RP. I think a half drow can be accepted where a drow would not. But realistically half-drows should be very rare on the surface. It would just be unlikely to see one hanging around.

Granted, a half drow baby can pop out of his/her mother, just about anywhere. But, humans are more tolerated in Sshamath then drow are tolerated on the surface. This would indicate to me that typical human - drow intimacy would occur more naturally in the upperdark or underdark.

I think there still needs to be lines drawn between the surface and UD as they are pretty much different worlds. But I think the UD-Surface RP, if done right can be really excellent. We should do more of it but we should be careful about it.

all ye half ones can git outta mah house!

we full bloods dont want ya down here either!

let them leave

This isn't to make half Drow Surface exclusive, it is to make them share the position that tieflings possess on the server but include the grey orc treatment I know we had at one point. (No IC access to places like Baldur's Gate) I don't play half Drow btw.

Tekill wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:59 pmThis would indicate to me that typical human - drow intimacy would occur more naturally in the upperdark or underdark.

More often than not, I imagine it would be no more "typical" than the sort of intimacy that produces half-orcs.

(I actually played a half-drow on Ravenloft whose backstory amounted to "conceived during surface raid, mom got rescued before returning to Underdark, got secretly spared and raised by mom in the surrounding woods". She'd never met a drow, and everyone she knew except her mother had either chased her away or tried to kill her.)

Tekill wrote: ↑Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:59 pm There are way too many Tieflings on the surface. There, I said it!

I would vote that Half-drow need to start in the UD. But they can transition to the surface with RP and DM approval upon satisfactory RP. I think a half drow can be accepted where a drow would not. But realistically half-drows should be very rare on the surface. It would just be unlikely to see one hanging around.

Granted, a half drow baby can pop out of his/her mother, just about anywhere. But, humans are more tolerated in Sshamath then drow are tolerated on the surface. This would indicate to me that typical human - drow intimacy would occur more naturally in the upperdark or underdark.

I think there still needs to be lines drawn between the surface and UD as they are pretty much different worlds. But I think the UD-Surface RP, if done right can be really excellent. We should do more of it but we should be careful about it.

I get the feeling that you are under the impression that half-drow are an underdark race, this in fact is not the case. They CAN be an underdark race, just like earth genasi can be. In fact there are more notable NPC's that are earth genasi in the underdark than half-drow which just goes to show the actual rarity of the race, in the Faerun book sourcebook, Underdark half-drow are not even a footnote. There is no mention of half-drow in any numbers in ANY drow city. All notable half-drow NPC's in canonical lore are surfacers. In fact there are not even any mentions of half-elves in any drow cites. Just as an example here is the population makeup in Sshamath The TSR population for the city is much higher stating that there are 32,000 drow and about 70,000 other inhabitants. This is a much more realistic number to me it also includes slaves, undead, and non drow. But still no mention of half-drow. Is there some kind of lore in any book ever printed that specifically states that half-drow only live in the underdark? I get that this is your opinion but I dont want people to think that your opinion, because it is similar to how half-drow have been treated on the server to be conflated with the actual established lore that has been Ignored.

In principle, yes, on Faerun as a whole, there ARE Half-Drow on the Surface, and likely, more on the Surface than in the Upper/Middledark.

But the devil, I mean the Drow...is in the details.

For starters, why Half-drow are likely not listed in population of Underdark cities is because in 99% of circumstances, Half-drow are seen as an abomination to the "most superior race that exists..." view point of the Drow, and are commonly killed at birth, or, when encountered any other time. This is just a part of Drow society, so those that ARE playing Half-drow in the Underdark, should very much understand this (however, as with most cases of RP, the OOC wish to interact between players often supersedes any Canon Lore aspect of Forgotten Realms).

Let's continue, by reading more of how Half-drow are explained in Races of Faerun:

In most lands, half-drow are rare. Since so many drow are irredeemably evil, they only mate with humans by way of rape or slavery. The only exception are the half-drow of the land of Dambrath in the Shining South, who arise from the centuries-old drow subjugation of the human folk of that land

Thus, in Dambrath—which is not the Sword Coast, or the Heartlands, and especially not Baldur's Gate, Half-drow would be equally rarer to a Drow on the Surface, for practical purposes. I say it again: we're playing in/on the Sword Coast, not the Shining South. Just cause there is that .001% chance a Half-drow form Dambrath would hop a boat to the Sword Coast, does not justify making Half-drow on OUR surface realm a reality.

Outside Dambrath, many half-drow are solitary souls, preferring to keep their own counsel than sully themselves with the opinions of others. Other times, they band together into a self-important group, often bullying those they feel they can intimidate.

If we take Canon Lore descriptions to heart and honor them in our RP choices, than the above makes for a pretty lonely existence for a Half-drow on the surface, unless of course there was a Half-drow group formed, and maintained. Imho, a single Player playing a single Half-drow on the Surface around BG does not make sense, nor justify changing the OOC Rules barring Half-drow on the Surface.

However, would I be a DM and had the ability to make a choice, I would be very willing to read and accept a proposal from a group of Players THAT DID wish to form a tight-knit surface group of Half-drow, in order to create some RP opportunity for the entire Server. The caveat being it should be well managed with good oversight by a DM or 2/3, AND said group of Players would really need to RP the fact that Half-drow of this nature would surely STAY THE F AWAY from general civilization. It's a very high RP "ask," but hey, if the Players would make the investment, then why not give it a chance?

And that leads to:

Most half-drow don’t get along well with anyone outside other half-drow. Dambrath is really the place for such people. Good half-drow are often friendly when approached with acceptance or understanding, but standoffish otherwise. They know all too well how most people feel about their drow kin and, by extension, them.

This. I know that we ALL play some form of Snowflake Character, but I also cannot support some possibility of finding a Half-drow at the campfire outside Baldur's Gate selling tea and cookies for good favor by the Radiant Heart crew! lol. Seriously, we players really need to honor the Canon descriptions of our 3.5e sourcebooks, else this Server just becomes a joke version of the Forgotten Realms, where OOC modern RL Humanist virtue and friendliness leads to all sorts of bad choices. We should all be supportive of each other and each others RP, but giving critique of others RP when it really stretchers or outright challenges Canon Lore, is also a form of support!!

Can we try that again, but without the strawman this time? The half-drow tea-and-cookie salesmen wouldn't even be allowed anywhere near the Gate, they've got too much drow in them.

(Citation: Try taking a half-drow PC there now and see what the DMs have to say about it.)

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:02 amLet's continue, by reading more of how Half-drow are explained in Races of Faerun:

In most lands, half-drow are rare. Since so many drow are irredeemably evil, they only mate with humans by way of rape or slavery. The only exception are the half-drow of the land of Dambrath in the Shining South, who arise from the centuries-old drow subjugation of the human folk of that land

Thus, in Dambrath—which is not the Sword Coast, or the Heartlands, and especially not Baldur's Gate, Half-drow would be equally rarer to a Drow on the Surface, for practical purposes. I say it again: we're playing in/on the Sword Coast, not the Shining South. Just cause there is that .001% chance a Half-drow form Dambrath would hop a boat to the Sword Coast, does not justify making Half-drow on OUR surface realm a reality.

No different than aasimar or any other planetouched (aside from fire/air genasi from Calimshan) that we have in droves on the server despite them supposed to be very rare.

Or gray orcs, for that matter.

PCs are the exceptions. They don't represent any collective movement of a group, they represent those rare, solitary exceptions.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:26 am

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:02 amLet's continue, by reading more of how Half-drow are explained in Races of Faerun:

In most lands, half-drow are rare. Since so many drow are irredeemably evil, they only mate with humans by way of rape or slavery. The only exception are the half-drow of the land of Dambrath in the Shining South, who arise from the centuries-old drow subjugation of the human folk of that land

Thus, in Dambrath—which is not the Sword Coast, or the Heartlands, and especially not Baldur's Gate, Half-drow would be equally rarer to a Drow on the Surface, for practical purposes. I say it again: we're playing in/on the Sword Coast, not the Shining South. Just cause there is that .001% chance a Half-drow form Dambrath would hop a boat to the Sword Coast, does not justify making Half-drow on OUR surface realm a reality.

No different than aasimar or any other planetouched (aside from fire/air genasi from Calimshan) that we have in droves on the server despite them supposed to be very rare.

Or gray orcs, for that matter.

PCs are the exceptions. They don't represent any collective movement of a group, they represent those rare, solitary exceptions.

So you’re answering a problem with another problem?

In terms of gameplay, PCs are absolutely NOT the exception, but the rule. 100 active PCs to 1 active NPC is the going ratio, imho.

Find a way to make the game environment ACTUALLY reflective of the “reality” of Forgotten Realms Life, and I’ll change my tune.

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:32 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:26 am

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:02 amLet's continue, by reading more of how Half-drow are explained in Races of Faerun:


Thus, in Dambrath—which is not the Sword Coast, or the Heartlands, and especially not Baldur's Gate, Half-drow would be equally rarer to a Drow on the Surface, for practical purposes. I say it again: we're playing in/on the Sword Coast, not the Shining South. Just cause there is that .001% chance a Half-drow form Dambrath would hop a boat to the Sword Coast, does not justify making Half-drow on OUR surface realm a reality.

No different than aasimar or any other planetouched (aside from fire/air genasi from Calimshan) that we have in droves on the server despite them supposed to be very rare.

Or gray orcs, for that matter.

PCs are the exceptions. They don't represent any collective movement of a group, they represent those rare, solitary exceptions.

So you’re answering a problem with another problem?

In terms of gameplay, PCs are absolutely NOT the exception, but the rule. 100 active PCs to 1 active NPC is the going ratio, imho.

Find a way to make the game environment ACTUALLY reflective of the “reality” of Forgotten Realms Life, and I’ll change my tune.

This is a high magic, fantasy setting, why would you want to make it an FR “reality”? If that were the case, the only PCs you would have would be commoners to satisfy your own sense of FR daily life, no?

Every PC is a snowflake. In lore, where there is even the smallest chance of something happening, then it can happen. Let the snowflakes fall where they do!

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:32 am
(I actually played a half-drow on Ravenloft whose backstory amounted to "conceived during surface raid, mom got rescued before returning to Underdark, got secretly spared and raised by mom in the surrounding woods". She'd never met a drow, and everyone she knew except her mother had either chased her away or tried to kill her.)

Which is a relatively cool backstory, until similar tales happen so often that players (not characters) get so tired of the required reactions that half-drow bring that RP naturally follows.. and instead of fear/distrust/hate/repulsion you get acceptance/apathy/ignorance because its less work and requires less buying in of others stories.

Same thing happened with tieflings which were, early on in our server, nearly universally distrusted.

You force a player to RP a reaction long enough they just get sick of doing it and, combined with real-world tolerance and inclusion, you get what you get.

While a half-drow on the surface isn't a ridiculous concept, the weakening of RP when that supposed to be what we are moving toward, seems counterintuitive.