Tiefling Racism on the Coast

[Deragnost]

No, this isn't a topic where I say "Tieflings should be loved!" So if you were thinking that, climb down from your horse, lower your shining sword and hear (read?) me out.

I warn that there's a bit of IC and OOC considerations, so if this is not something you want to read - you've been warned.

=============================================================================================================================

So!

I've been recently in a few situations, that made myself think this. Meaning, racism toward Tieflings / Half-Orcs / Drow / Half-Drow / Grey Orcs are a thing. One should not be surprised if people reacts with hostility toward said character.
Of course, on should always stay true to their own character, so if someone is actually open toward most monstruous races, it's all perfectly fine they behave in a certain way - rather than another, toward this or the other race.

That being said.

We all have our limits of bearing certain behaviors, and we all know that we're not here to get hammered - even if a lot of keyboard lions exist (generally speaking, not talking about BGTSCC). With that in mind, I believe that insults and racism are fine to the setting, as long as the persons behind the other screen doesn't feel offended.

I'll do an example. The following names are completely invented and not related to any existing character, apologies if there are similar names in game!

Human Albert goes to Tiefling Xaszz.
Albert calls Xaszz a demonic spawn.
All good.
Albert calls Xaszz a devil-breeder.
All good for the tiefling still.
Albert calls Xaszz a Duckhead...
Xaszz player begins to feel uncomfortable.
Albert says to Xaszz that he's inferior and has to lick his hindquarters.
Xaszz player feels completely uncomfortable.

So how do we think Xaszz player behave? Mind, these two are of course playing their characters, so it's all IC, but it's beginning to pierce the sensibility of the player.
I'll give you my opinion, which is pretty straightforward, but I'd also want to hear other opinions.

From my point of view:

1. Xaszz player should contact Albert player, and tell him to lower the tones by a few degrees.
2. Albert complies and tries to adjust at the best of their capabilities.
3. Carrying on as before, as buddies.

Of course, an answer like "I'm playing my character, I can't do differently" is not tollerable because you don't play to offend OOCly others, you play to have fun. If the other is not having fun, one should respect the other person preferences. Should that answer happen, one has either to find an excuse ICly, or just OOCly leave, because that's OOC disrespectful. And, of course, if they call back calling you names because you left the field - there's always DMs to report to.

I don't know, what do you think?

[Hoihe]

Reminds me of Xorena's thread concerning fema playwrs / characters and being the receipent of sexual harrasmwnt veiled as "Just IC things".

By virtue of this similarity alone, for sake of avoiding hypocrisy I find myself supporting this thread.

Beyond that, since the request is not "No racism" but rather "Please do not use vertain words/phrases when expressing specieism" - I believe everyone else can agree too. Player comfort ought be paramount in 'conflict scenarios', where the 'least action/effort taken'(not doing sth vs doing sth you wouldn't) is weighted for.

[Deathgrowl]

Human Albert goes to Tiefling Xaszz.
Albert calls Xaszz a demonic spawn.
All good.
Albert calls Xaszz a devil-breeder.
All good for the tiefling still.
Albert calls Xaszz a Duckhead...
Xaszz player begins to feel uncomfortable.
Albert says to Xaszz that he's inferior and has to lick his hindquarters.
Xaszz player feels completely uncomfortable.

Missing a bit of context here.

Does Xaszz player become uncomfortable because it's the third or fourth insult, or because of the content of the insult? If you flipped these around and the insults started with the last one, how would this play out?

Through all of this, what is the Xaszz responding? Is there reason for Albert to continue standing in his face and insulting him?

What kind of personality and reputation does Xaszz have? Is he the classical shady and low-charisma tiefling who Albert may well have other reasons than just his tieflingness of being offended by?

And who is Albert in this? Why would he approach the tiefling in the first place, just to spit insults in his face? Over and over, even? Maybe the two have history of conflict? Maybe Xaszz is in fact a paladin tiefling - as rare as those are - and Albert is some necromancer?

My point is here here that context matters, and these interactions don't happen in a vacuum. If Albert's player is hiding behind a veil of IC to insult Xaszz as a player, then yeah, this is a problem. If Albert has never interacted with Xaszz before (nor the two players interacted on other characters), the conversation itself seems quite unbelievable to me - especially without responses from Xaszz.

Now I have seen people make character with the explicit goal of playing kind of dumb and going up into people's faces to throw insults at them. Not at tieflings specifically - this has happened to elves, aasimar, half-orcs, any of the genasi - everything over the years. A player makes like a commoner character, maybe even a throwaway, just to do this. And that stuff is quite frankly tasteless.

[Whirlwind]

Personally I'm all for a bit of prejudice if it makes sense to the setting. But I'd expect this mainly from NPCs.

I occasionally RP it that when my character, Malakai walks into the Baldur's Gate (or remote settlements) for instance, there might be the odd commoner gawking at him in a 'wtf are you' kind of way. Though genasi aren't as readily disliked as tieflings and half-orcs for obvious lore/geographical reasons (e.g. the recent war with the fiends near Dragonspear Castle, orcs being orcs etc) so he gets off lightly. Maybe if he was in Calimshan it might be different.

I get that other player characters who are the small percentile of the population of the Heartlands (who tend to be adventurers) moving over vast distances/swathes of land, exposed to other cultures/ethnicities/races and having backgrounds completely atypical to the average commoner, that they're probably more likely to be far more accepting of the more exotic/monstrous looking folk.

But shy of living in a melting-pot like society (e.g. Waterdeep or say, Silverymoon), the average person who never traveled further than the boundaries of their city or village won't be and in my view should occasionally be hostile and suspicious of tieflings, half-orcs etc.

To that end, agreed with Deathgrowl - context matters. That said, I don't know why players would get offended at insults directed at on-screen avatars. Yes, we like our characters, they are projections of ourselves and all that, but we're not our characters.

If it's done in such a way where it's harrassment happening OOC at the player, I get why it might be annoying/upsetting. If it's appropriate to context and in-character though, have at it in my view. If someone came up to Malakai and called him a blue b*****d, I, Androoh/Whirlwind won't be getting upset behind the monitor and hyperventilating into a brown paper bag. In fact, I'd welcome this very mild form of conflict RP.

That's just me though.

There's way to do it tactfully and appropriate to context though. Simply just making a character that goes up to your half-orc or tieflings face to insult you is a bit tasteless, but it depends on the situation. Is this character/commoner RP'd as being physically imposing, sure of themselves as compared to their target?

If it makes sense from the RP angle that they want to bully/antagonise your character then why not?

And sure, if you're still uncomfortable with that as a player, just PM the player of the character exhibiting prejudice to say you're not down with that OR put it in your character description that you don't like overt prejudice expressed IC'ly toward your 'toon.'

A bit of ooc communication through pm's useful in these kind of interactions IMO.

[yyj]

Being someone who often play ugly tieflings, I don't mind personally if someone calls my character X or Y.

I see them as RP opportunities and it usually ends up with the aggressor being exposed, rather than me getting upset or anything.

I have rp'd my tiefling getting upset and running away but I personally found out these happenings more funny than anything else.

[The Whistler]

I think that people should try to stop having panic attacks over words on a screen.

[Almarea90]

That depends on the insult though. Personally I can't care less if someone is racist or insults my character. However if the insult is sexualised for example that makes me Ooc uncomfortable and this is one of the reasons I play on a pegi13 server.
Other people have different triggers and making a blanket statement of it's your character not you doesn't take this into consideration.

[Whirlwind]

That depends on the insult though. Personally I can't care less if someone is racist or insults my character. However if the insult is sexualised for example that makes me Ooc uncomfortable and this is one of the reasons I play on a pegi13 server.
Other people have different triggers and making a blanket statement of it's your character not you doesn't take this into consideration.

Fair point and partially agree - but I'd argue that's an evolution of the topic beyond IG antagonism and insults based on lore-based racism.

If the tone of the insults or comments are sexual - it's another arena of discussion.

Again though, with conflict RP, I'd say send pm's to clarify what one's boundaries are or put a disclaimer in your character's description. Or even just walk away if the other player isn't listening / report things if necessary.

And I realise some might counter, 'well I shouldn't have to do this' (regarding PM's / description disclaimers I mean) - I don't disagree but sometimes you need to spell it out if antagonist RP isn't performed tactfully or with finesse.

Especially considering that everyone's threshold for what is comfortable RP is different.

Hopefully all involved parties in the RP are operating with respect toward one another OOC'ly.

◈ Edits for grammar / spelling.

[Kiran]

My hot take:

If it is in-game, done by an in-game character, it's all good. People can roleplay racists, sexists and whateverists along as it is exactly that, them playing a character.

If I feel there might be anything OOC to it, maybe just a gut feeling, I tend to just send them a message saying hi and double-checking. 95% of the time it turns out they are just roleplaying their character and is all good, and if it is the 5% that ain't, usually a convo with them helps clarify stuff. I would say my 6 years on this server I have had 2 incidents that had to go further than the above.

One was a guy going around killing everyone cos "Lolz" and got banned. Other was a player who had been banned who found a way to get back into game and was just spamming horrid things. Also got banned

Typically just sending a polite message, if you are uncertain, solves everything.

[Steve]

If it is in-game, done by an in-game character, it's all good. People can roleplay racists, sexists and whateverists along as it is exactly that, them playing a character.

This, but in a perfect permanent world.

What likely happens, however, is that players log in seeking out IC interactions, the famous "Role-play" experience. The quickest method to do that is look for the most populated corner of the Server, that usually being the most common area, like, the Eastern Farmlands campfire. And so many players congregate there, and the more the better, since others are also seeking what others are seeking—a exponential growth.

But then the Racist Toon shows up, and potty mouths all over the campfire, and the campfire-ys. It gets first annoying IC, then it gets insulting OOC, because no matter how much and good RP you do to counter act this onslaught, it never lets up.

The result? Those most insulted, or most annoyed, or even slightly annoyed and not-so-particularly-insulted-but think, and then start, to move away from this common area, to something more private. Then, when the Racist Toon finds them there, they move even further out of reach, to a key-locked area.

In the end, less and less players are interacting. Well...at least this is one version of the story.

Regardless, imho, there should be waaaaay greater animosity between Races, Professions, etc. Hellz...all non-Human Races should be not only concerned but quite IC annoyed that Humans are just bulldozing their way across Faerun and back!

But the deeper, real real issue here is that we a RL Human beings looking for a digitally-hosted way to CONNECT. RP and gaming and online servers area means in which we can find connection and entertainment between other Humans, where or besides what we can find in the Real World, in person.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a psychoanalyst to see that we log into to have fun, not be annoyed. And anytime the "racist RP," though totally valid in the context of the Forgotten Realms, gets to the point where it is non-stop, that ruins the fun (and simply, each individual RL players has more or less of a tolerance).

Still...many times, it is simply impossible to tell, OOC, if the player is wanting to keep it IC, or really has an OOC agenda.

[Deragnost]

That depends on the insult though. Personally I can't care less if someone is racist or insults my character. However if the insult is sexualised for example that makes me Ooc uncomfortable and this is one of the reasons I play on a pegi13 server.
Other people have different triggers and making a blanket statement of it's your character not you doesn't take this into consideration.

Pretty much my point.


What deathgrowl says, that it requires a context, it's also true although I don't have anything specific in mind, since - as I said, it's a random example not connected to the game itself
My point is, a reaction to some IC behavior can have an OOC reaction because we all have our limits - even if some people don't see it for what it is. In my example I wrote:

Albert says to Xaszz that he's inferior and has to lick his hindquarters.

Even without saying vulgarities, that is a form of psychological abuse, and humiliation (public or private, it doesn't matter). Abuse and humiliation is a big "no no" to me if done against anyone, wether it is IC or OOC: it doesn't matter (and I stop here, or I'll start a rant).

As Almarea said, everyone has their triggers. Knowing them, or making them known if they happen, I believe it's something that would improve not only the RP between the community, but also a way to make it more enjoyable.

[JustAnotherGuy]

There's been some good points made so far. I'm going to broaden my response just a tad, and speak on behaviors in general.

Essentially, we all know IC/OOC, and if IC bleeds to OOC, that's a bad thing. And this has been said, but there needs to be communication when something bothers someone.

We are on a server that has decently strict rules, especially concerning sexual stuff. But that PG13 rating also extends to other things, not just sex. How much violence, and even language. I think that some people have the idea that as long as they are within these confines of the "hard rules", they are ok. But the rules can't cover everything, especially when it comes to the psychological.

On the flip side, there is a certain expectation of what is allowed by players going into things. Going back to the original example, if you play a tiefling, you go into it understanding that tieflings are sometimes hated. If you are a person who is easily offended, or have some issues that could easily be triggered by the response a character could give to your tiefling, then you should reconsider playing one.

So it's a give and take. Go into it knowing "this is what the rules allow, am I ok with this?", and also on the other side, try and be cognizant of sensitive areas for others. After all, we're all here with the same goal. Killing off Necr- ... I mean, having fun.

[Wyatt]

I appreciate that while this is a sensitive and polarizing topic the comments herein have been mostly respectful. Thank you and I will keep my moderator butt out of this thread unless necessary.

[cosmic ray]

I don't see any problem whatsoever with IC attitudes like this, but I see a very big problem with similar attitudes on an OOC level, which BGtSCC has had for many years to the point that they even reflect on its rules. I think we may have been defending what we should be attacking and attacking what we should be defending.

[selhan]

"Human Albert goes to Tiefling Xaszz.
Albert calls Xaszz a demonic spawn.
All good.
Albert calls Xaszz a devil-breeder.
All good for the tiefling still.
Albert calls Xaszz a Duckhead... *It is at this point his throat be slit , my sword done ran through his gut* Nuff said...
Xaszz player begins to feel uncomfortable.
Albert says to Xaszz that he's inferior and has to lick his hindquarters.
Xaszz player feels completely uncomfortable."


People need to be very very careful with their IC insults. It should only go so far. In this IC setting, how far before you insult a Orc before it tries to cleave you? Like really , the rules nor the game should shield someone from going way too over board to the point another player starts to even feely a bit of unease ooc. They would be crossing the boundaries of "having fun". Zero Tolerance to excessive insults was the way of the old days. Be mindful of your rp. For your actions and decisions can and will cause consequences.