Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

A small request that I think would help add to RP flavour for many classes

Would it be possible to give players access to a detect alignment spell (Not strictly a 3.5 spell) and a detect evil mechanic as well as implementing means to avoid it such as non-detection, undetectable alignment, and misdirection

I am looking into doing something to this effect in a coming patch.

Detect Evil
The detect evil spell will be added with inspiration from both 2e and 3e mechanics.

3e mechanics: 3 rounds concentration. First round detects if any evil auras are in the area, second determines the number and strength of the strongest one, third detects exact location. Moving breaks concentration.

2e mechanics: Detects recent evil or intention to do future evil, not merely evil alignment. Functionally this means that only classes that commit evil as a normal part of their occupation (eg clerics, palemasters, assassins, and so on), races that are evil by nature (drow, orcs, etc), keeping an evil-aligned item in your inventory, or having recently cast a spell with the evil descriptor will flag as evil. (Note that you will only flag as evil as a member of these classes/races if your alignment is evil. Not simply by having the race/class. Needs both). Random fighter or rogue or even shadowdancer with an Evil alignment won't trigger evil.

Also blocked by Non-Detection. Non-Detection blocking is 'silent' -- the paladin/cleric doesn't know that it's failed.

Your 2e paragraph could use a little more clarification, just to be sure. You clarify that a random evil fighter/rogue wouldn't fail the test, but you don't make a similar clarification for a random good drow or something.

I think I still got the gist of it from the parentheses immediately before that, but examples for both cases seem better than examples for just one case.

Grendunor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:55 pm A small request that I think would help add to RP flavour for many classes

Would it be possible to give players access to a detect alignment spell (Not strictly a 3.5 spell) and a detect evil mechanic as well as implementing means to avoid it such as non-detection, undetectable alignment, and misdirection

I remember how we were all told in 2014 in the Radiant Heart that we couldnt detect evil, mostly because people wouldnt accept a mechanical means to expose their allignments. One can hope that mentality has changed.

Still I can imagine some silly scenarios with people over using such spell with poor motivation, but any and all spells that have a roleplaying application gets a big thumbs up from me.

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:01 am Your 2e paragraph could use a little more clarification, just to be sure. You clarify that a random evil fighter/rogue wouldn't fail the test, but you don't make a similar clarification for a random good drow or something.

I think I still got the gist of it from the parentheses immediately before that, but examples for both cases seem better than examples for just one case.

Simply put, in order for an Evil alignment to trigger Detect Evil, it has to be backed up by something that indicates "has committed evil or intends to commit evil". Which is certain races and classes. A good drow does not flag it -- they have ascended their race. An evil human does not flag it -- human societies are too varied for human to be a good indication. An evil drow does flag it, because drow societies commit evil as a matter of course, so an evil drow can generally be assumed to have participated in the evil actions of their people, and will likely continue to do so in the future.

The only ways to flag Evil without having the evil alignment is to be a Cleric of an evil god (in this case, the god's alignment overrides your own), to possess an evil item (Use Limitation: Evil), or to have recently cast an evil spell (eg Animate Dead).

So if I'm a human, and evil, but that doesn't flag it because human society is so varied that evil gets lost in the wash so to speak...

what exactly is the mechanical benefit? Being a human outside very specific situations seems to just make you immune. Same could be argued for a couple other races, like gnomes and dwarves, who are generally "good and neutral" but have plenty of crazy examples.

artemitavik wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:56 pm So if I'm a human, and evil, but that doesn't flag it because human society is so varied that evil gets lost in the wash so to speak...

what exactly is the mechanical benefit? Being a human outside very specific situations seems to just make you immune. Same could be argued for a couple other races, like gnomes and dwarves, who are generally "good and neutral" but have plenty of crazy examples.

The purpose is to avoid having it be an instant "detects literally every evil-aligned person" mechanic. The goal should be that it detects obvious evil, but subtle evil remains as subtle as ever. Undead, demons, clerics of evil gods, blackguards, assassins, drow, orcs, those are creatures or occupations that involve so much evil actions/magic on a regular basis that it's very hard for them to hide what they are (but still can be hidden through nondetection/undetectable alignment spells). But average joe evil-aligned character doesn't do enough daily, regular evil to flag it.

Now, if a DM is present, then they might rule that someone flags as detect evil in other situations. But those "crazy examples" you point out are something that it's pretty difficult to code for without having all evil-aligned creatures get flagged. Which is not ideal.

From Complete Paladin's Handbook:

Eligible Targets
A paladin can detect evil radiated by characters and monsters; undead created by evil
magic; Negative Plane influences; evil artifacts; certain enchanted swords; and other intelligent
objects that radiate evil. The ability can't detect cursed objects or traps, nor does it work on
creatures of Animal intelligence or less (Intelligence 0 or 1), such as centipedes or carnivorous
plants.
The paladin's sensitivity to evil responds to the target's intention to commit an evil act. The
ability doesn't reveal the precise nature of the intended act, nor does it reveal the target's actual
alignment. Characters who are strongly aligned, who do not stray from their faith, and are of at
least 9th level might radiate evil if intent upon appropriate actions. For instance, if the paladin
uses this ability on a suspicious nonplayer character, the paladin may sense that the NPC
radiates evil, but not that the NPC is neutral evil, or that the NPC plans to ambush and kill the
paladin. If an NPC recently murdered a passerby, the paladin might pick up evil emanations
from the NPC but cannot determine the nature of the crime. Creatures such as the rakshasa,
who disguise themselves with illusions, may conceal their appearances but not their evil
intentions.
A high-level character unshakably committed to an evil alignment may radiate evil even
when not specifically planning an evil act or thinking evil thoughts. Powerful evil monsters, such
as red dragons and hill giants, also radiate evil uncontrollably. A paladin can always detect the
presence of these types of evil beings, unless unusual conditions are in effect. For instance, in
some evil strongholds or planes, everything reads evil, effectively negating the paladin's evil-sensing
ability.

This is, in my eyes, the most sensible way to include detect evil in an RP environment. It's a kind of "spider sense" against evil actions that have been committed or are about to happen, not 'I can detect literally everyone that is evil.' Races whose societies are awash in evil activities (drow, orcs, etc) are such that you can generally assume if a PC of those races is evil-aligned, then they have committed evil and will continue to commit evil along the same lines as the rest of their society. Classes whose features involve the regular undertaking of evil actions (such as living sacrifices, empowering evil gods, literally having an undead arm, etc) can also be assumed to be committed to performing evil.

But random evil human, random evil gnome, random evil rogue, random evil wizard, random evil fighter, etc? There's no way to tell they are actively planning on committing evil in that moment, nor that their past evil actions (if they have any) have been so serious or mystical as to cause them to radiate strongly evil auras on a regular basis.

I feel this is the best middle ground between opening this ability while not greatly affecting those players who want to play "evil infiltrators". It is meant to provide reactivity for "loud and proud" evil, players that want to be known for their evil actions, not unmasking quiet evil. And the intent is for its use against NPCs and plot objects and areas, not other PCs.

I would like to point out that on BGTSCC, the Assassin PrC had its Evil Alignment requirement removed. Likely to reflect the “Avenger” goodly version without having to clone the PrC.

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:23 pm I would like to point out that on BGTSCC, the Assassin PrC had its Evil Alignment requirement removed. Likely to reflect the “Avenger” goodly version without having to clone the PrC.

Yup. As said, it's not the class itself that flags as evil, but specifically evil-aligned assassins.

So is there going to be a formal list of stuff that gets pinged somewhere so we know OOCly in some fashion?

For instance, above you said a human wouldn't flag it because of ambiguous culture, but then that evil human assassins would. To me that's confusing. Is human culture too ambiguous that it masks evil "norms" or is it not? I foresee a whole lot of arguing with results one way or the other unless that sort of stuff is fully laid out (outside of like "You serve Cyric, Cyric is evil, you're pinging evil" obvious stuff). I mean like this:

Derik is super not-evil, but there are some people he REALLY hates and has murderous intent towards when he sees or interacts for too long. That is an evil intent and possibly pretty palatable. Does he now ping for his murderous intent?

Assassin guy is evil, but hasn't murdered anyone for days. He has no intent to murder anyone, steal, or anything else. He's at a party laughing, playing games, drinking, flirting. There's no evil intent and hasn't been for a while... does he still ping?

I know you said that it's mostly for use in NPCs with DM events and stuff, but you know for a fact people are going to be using it on other PCs, good, evil whatever. Detect alignment is detect alignment and it's gonna get used on both sides, especially with there now being full open conflict.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:33 pm

Steve wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:23 pm I would like to point out that on BGTSCC, the Assassin PrC had its Evil Alignment requirement removed. Likely to reflect the “Avenger” goodly version without having to clone the PrC.

Yup. As said, it's not the class itself that flags as evil, but specifically evil-aligned assassins.

Undead, demons, clerics of evil gods, blackguards, assassins, drow, orcs, those are creatures or occupations that involve so much evil actions/magic on a regular basis that it's very hard for them to hide what they are

If assassins get an exception from this list, then great. It just reads as they are default grouped into detectable Evil.

artemitavik wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:47 pm So is there going to be a formal list of stuff that gets pinged somewhere so we know OOCly in some fashion?

The tentative plan so far is:

Is an NPC (always flags Evil if Evil-aligned or Undead or Fiend)
Recently cast an evil spell (flags Evil until next reset)
Has a Use Limited: Evil item in inventory (always flags Evil)
Blackguard, Warrior of Darkness (always flags Evil)
Pale Master (always flags Evil if they have an undead arm)
Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Divine Champion, Spirit Shaman, and associated PRCs (always flags Evil if they serve an evil god)
Warlock, Assassin, Ghost-Faced Killer, Blood Magus, Red Wizard, Guild Thief, Dread Pirate, Shadow Adept, priests of non-evil gods (flags Evil only if they are Evil-aligned)
Drow, Orc (Gray, Tanarukk), Duergar, Tiefling (flags Evil only if they are Evil-aligned)
Has a Regional feat that places the PC as coming from an Evil culture (eg Thay, Vaasa, Zhentil Keep) (flags Evil only if they are Evil-aligned)

There are also four degrees of flagging:

Faint
Moderate
Strong
Overwhelming

How strong the aura is dependent on the flagging. Class/race-based flagging only ever appears as Faint. Evil clerics, blackguards, warriors of darkness, undead, fiends, and Evil spells radiate a strength determined by their level, up to Overwhelming.

Derik is super not-evil, but there are some people he REALLY hates and has murderous intent towards when he sees or interacts for too long. That is an evil intent and possibly pretty palatable. Does he now ping for his murderous intent?

If a DM is present and has reason to suspect that he's actively going to act on these murderous urges, yes. Otherwise, no. Since we can't program a spell to read your character's mind.

Assassin guy is evil, but hasn't murdered anyone for days. He has no intent to murder anyone, steal, or anything else. He's at a party laughing, playing games, drinking, flirting. There's no evil intent and hasn't been for a while... does he still ping?

Yes. You don't have the Assassin class unless you make a living murdering people.

The point of this system is to allow a small semblance of intent-based detect evil instead of 100% detects evil alignments always, within the confines of what we can actually code the system to check for. If this was pnp, then you'd always have a DM present to quibble over the exact intent at the time, but that isn't the case on a PW.

Steve wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:48 amIf assassins get an exception from this list, then great. It just reads as they are default grouped into detectable Evil.

As said, in the majority of cases flagging requires two variables to be true, not one. Evil-aligned but not of a triggering class/race? Doesn't flag. Of a triggering class/race, but not Evil-aligned? Doesn't flag. You need to be both. In this case: Evil-aligned and Assassin.

If you want to introduce detect evil, I expect the NPCs to sell amulets to hide the alignment like on PnP

Blaze wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:52 am If you want to introduce detect evil, I expect the NPCs to sell amulets to hide the alignment like on PnP

These would be available. Maybe not from stores, but undetectable alignment is a third level spell and so can be wanded. Actual amulets with it as a permanent effect would probably be loot drops.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:13 am

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artemitavik wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:47 pm So is there going to be a formal list of stuff that gets pinged somewhere so we know OOCly in some fashion?

The tentative plan so far is:

Is an NPC (always flags Evil if Evil-aligned or Undead or Fiend)
Recently cast an evil spell (flags Evil until next reset)
Has a Use Limited: Evil item in inventory (always flags Evil)
Blackguard, Warrior of Darkness (always flags Evil)
Pale Master (always flags Evil if they have an undead arm)
Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Divine Champion, Spirit Shaman, and associated PRCs (always flags Evil if they serve an evil god)
Warlock, Assassin, Ghost-Faced Killer, Blood Magus, Red Wizard, Guild Thief, Dread Pirate, Shadow Adept, priests of non-evil gods (flags Evil only if they are Evil-aligned)
Drow, Orc (Gray, Tanarukk), Duergar, Tiefling (flags Evil only if they are Evil-aligned)
Has a Regional feat that places the PC as coming from an Evil culture (eg Thay, Vaasa, Zhentil Keep) (flags Evil only if they are Evil-aligned)

There are also four degrees of flagging:

Faint
Moderate
Strong
Overwhelming

How strong the aura is dependent on the flagging. Class/race-based flagging only ever appears as Faint. Evil clerics, blackguards, warriors of darkness, undead, fiends, and Evil spells radiate a strength determined by their level, up to Overwhelming.

Derik is super not-evil, but there are some people he REALLY hates and has murderous intent towards when he sees or interacts for too long. That is an evil intent and possibly pretty palatable. Does he now ping for his murderous intent?

If a DM is present and has reason to suspect that he's actively going to act on these murderous urges, yes. Otherwise, no. Since we can't program a spell to read your character's mind.

Assassin guy is evil, but hasn't murdered anyone for days. He has no intent to murder anyone, steal, or anything else. He's at a party laughing, playing games, drinking, flirting. There's no evil intent and hasn't been for a while... does he still ping?

Yes. You don't have the Assassin class unless you make a living murdering people.

The point of this system is to allow a small semblance of intent-based detect evil instead of 100% detects evil alignments always, within the confines of what we can actually code the system to check for. If this was pnp, then you'd always have a DM present to quibble over the exact intent at the time, but that isn't the case on a PW.

Steve wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:48 amIf assassins get an exception from this list, then great. It just reads as they are default grouped into detectable Evil.

As said, in the majority of cases flagging requires two variables to be true, not one. Evil-aligned but not of a triggering class/race? Doesn't flag. Of a triggering class/race, but not Evil-aligned? Doesn't flag. You need to be both. In this case: Evil-aligned and Assassin.

All of this makes the spell completely useless in my view. It adds nothing: If you can't tell whether who or what you are looking for truly is evil, we're effectively back at what we've already got currently. No useful information what so ever. If an evil fighter (say pure fighter) who has all sorts of evil schemes and intents does not trigger the spell, the spell has failed its intended design.

If Derik's hatred for certain people has a good-aligned reason (maybe they are evil and have done evil things that he hates), his "murderous" intent isn't so "murderous", as it is righteous. (On the other hand, if he simply hates them for no moral reason at all, and just wants to kill them, perhaps he is not as "super not-evil" as described?)

Not to mention how the classes that ping on if character is also evil, seems to be picked a bit on arbitrary grounds. What makes an evil Dread Pirate radiate evil where an evil Frenzied Berserker does not? A bard does not? Barbarian?

Good and evil are objective in Forgotten Realms. They are forces of nature: This is why Protection from Alignment works the way it does (in-character). Something or someone is good or evil (or neutral!). They have arrived there based on their actions, or their inherent nature (dragon disciples are locked to their ancestor's alignment, and their psychology affected by it. A similar matter is with favoured souls, who are born into the service of a god, and thus have their psychology affected by that).

For this to have any utility (and I would add Detect Good, Law and Chaos as well), it has to be non-arbitrary in what it detects.