Thoughts on: Revising Master Alchemist and Elixirs
Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:02 am
Hello everyone,
During various discussions recently, it was made rather evident that communal agreement is that Elixirs, and Master Alchemist by extention, are not particularly well implemented.
It is in my opinion that multiple individual stopgap measures such as increasing Elixir exceptions or tacking on effects to make it more combat-worthy will not solve the core issues that are seen with the class.
As currently implemented, it is a crafting class in a server uniquely without formalized crafting, and thus managed to neither fill a role in combat nor have proper competition for services. As noted numerous times by Steve, there is also the factor that the listed consequence for consuming Elixirs has effectively no teeth, and incentivized the use of long-term buffs (which can be used without penalty) over short or instantiations effects (which can be replicated much cheaper and without risk with wands or scrolls).
Given this, and the current roadmap objective to re-approach crafting, I would like to suggest a substantial revision, both to the class and the elixir systems. Again, my intention as with all my discussions is to explore the design and options available and receive feedback.
Therefore, as a disclaimer to prevent confusion: Please keep in mind that I am not a developer, nor is this suggestion endorsed by the staff for implementation.
My purpose is to provide alternatives and see what the community might accept as alternatives to the existing poorly-regarded system, and improve visibility on ideals and options should circumstance and allowances permit follow-through. I will do my best to clarify my reasonings if there are lingering questions, but out of practicality and prudence will be posting no more than twice a week, as I have been with my other threads.
Yes, there is a summary/TL:DR at the bottom. However, if you have issue with any point in it, I tried to be thorough so please check the full post to see if it has been already addressed.
As ever: commentary, concerns, and query is welcome.
Cheers,
Kit
Master Alchemist current rules references:
P&P Version
Current BGTSCC Version
For consideration:
Notes on the Craft (Alchemy) Skill: Linking many of the abilities of the Master Alchemist to it's titular skill seems entirely appropriate to me. The current implementation requires a 10 Alchemy, and then zero improvement in the skill. My currently proposed abilities encourage investment and actual use of the skill to grow the class's powers in a manner similar to Bard. It also puts a practical limitation and incentive for lower CL elixirs by reducing the DC down from 58 (10 + CL30 + SL9*2) - a roll I know dedicated players could manage, but still an effort that requires dedication. Likewise with the Alchemical Items - Perfected items do require achievable investment, rather than having simply the 10 points base and never again. Ideally the Alchemical Creation would be a radial ability for crafting any Alchemical grenade-like as is permitted by the base skill itself, not just Alchemist Fires. For claritive purposes, I am looking at: Acid Flasks, Choking Powder, Tanglefoot Bags, and Thunderstones. Holy Water needs it's own revision but is already made via a spell. These would not be free, but I don't know costs or how it might otherwise interact with the proposed crafting system.
Notes on removal of the class-discount: The base class does not itself grant a discount to crafting potions. That discount is provided by a feat Magical Artisan which is a class requirement. Given that we do not have the feat as a class requirement (because we don't have the feat), I do not see that it should receive the benefits. On the flip side, I do not think requiring another feat is appropriate for the class, because that further pigeonholes the class into a marketplace-only class and away from being a field-viable build due to the loss of a potential combat-feat (In addition to the mandatory creation of new feats). As such, the only discounts it provides are to the lower-level potions which it can now produce in bulk, and thereby compete somewhat with wand proliferation.
Notes on Elixirs: I am aware that the "Elixir problem" is pretty much going to exist regardless thanks to "cat-bag" principles. My intention with these proposed changes is to borrow the Flash Bomb coding for Elixirs to provide them timed functionality. Activated either by the Master Alchemist to make them tradeable, or upon leaving the Master Alchemist's inventory it gets a timestamp. When used, compare to the timestamp and apply penalties appropriate to the duration. This would retain the ability for Elixirs to be shared with party members or via RP, but increasingly dangerous the longer they are held depending on the CL. Higher CL means bigger side-effects once they 'go bad', providing further incentive for lower CL elixirs (like Potions of Heal at CL11). As such, hopefully existing exceptions on individual spells and personal-target spells can be removed as effective penalties would be in place.
The numbers I have provided are entirely placeholder. Other options could include:
Notes on Toxicity: I do like the Toxicity system but it's both obscure, and obtuse, without imparting any practical detriment - particularly with long-term, high-CL buff elixirs. I would propose steps slimilar to what I have suggested before, of every 20 points of toxicity imparting a stacking penalty, as well as a duration of impact relevant to the effect of the elixir. Using 20-point steps, combined with the change to Elixirs, would mean that a toxic CL30 elixir would immediately impart the first 3 breakpoints (60 toxicity), and thus a potential substantial detriment. The change would also make it clear that high CL elixirs are more dangerous, unless you know they have been recently brewed (or at least recently provided by an Alchemist). In all circumstances, these risks should be public knowledge, rather than obscured behind unknowable code barriers.
The table I provide below is intended to be both predictable and thematically debilitating in ways that are not trivially overcome by spells like Restoration. I haven't provided a duration, but my thoughts would be either at-least 10-minutes, based on the CL of the effects, or linked to the other effects provided by the elixir-ed spell (complicated option).
Summary:
The changes I propose double the level investment of the class from 5 to 10, remove the flat cost-reduction to un-dispellable CL-30 Elixirs in exchange for allowing the Alchemist to craft lower-level potions in bulk, Increase the variety and potency of Alchemical weapons available to the Alchemist to use (including Poisons which are canonically also alchemical). The level 2 ability is not in the P&P class, but provides a P&P feature currently unavailable to anyone with the Craft (Alchemy) skill, while making them actually useful in the hands of the class. The level 10 capstone is custom, but inspired by the Epic use of Craft Alchemy, with the DC boost as consideration for the general potency of the server and an optional suggestion.
It is my intention that these changes turn the Master Alchemist into a much stronger position aiding a party directly by providing time-dependent trades while having a unique arsenal of support, rather than sitting on a sideline and trafficking drugs via Consignment. I don't think these changes prevent the drug-traffickers, but do sharply increase the penalties involved with relying on such product.
During various discussions recently, it was made rather evident that communal agreement is that Elixirs, and Master Alchemist by extention, are not particularly well implemented.
It is in my opinion that multiple individual stopgap measures such as increasing Elixir exceptions or tacking on effects to make it more combat-worthy will not solve the core issues that are seen with the class.
As currently implemented, it is a crafting class in a server uniquely without formalized crafting, and thus managed to neither fill a role in combat nor have proper competition for services. As noted numerous times by Steve, there is also the factor that the listed consequence for consuming Elixirs has effectively no teeth, and incentivized the use of long-term buffs (which can be used without penalty) over short or instantiations effects (which can be replicated much cheaper and without risk with wands or scrolls).
Given this, and the current roadmap objective to re-approach crafting, I would like to suggest a substantial revision, both to the class and the elixir systems. Again, my intention as with all my discussions is to explore the design and options available and receive feedback.
Therefore, as a disclaimer to prevent confusion: Please keep in mind that I am not a developer, nor is this suggestion endorsed by the staff for implementation.
My purpose is to provide alternatives and see what the community might accept as alternatives to the existing poorly-regarded system, and improve visibility on ideals and options should circumstance and allowances permit follow-through. I will do my best to clarify my reasonings if there are lingering questions, but out of practicality and prudence will be posting no more than twice a week, as I have been with my other threads.
Yes, there is a summary/TL:DR at the bottom. However, if you have issue with any point in it, I tried to be thorough so please check the full post to see if it has been already addressed.
As ever: commentary, concerns, and query is welcome.
Cheers,
Kit
Master Alchemist current rules references:
P&P Version
Current BGTSCC Version
For consideration:
Master Alchemist
Requirements: Craft Alchemy 10, Spellcraft 10
Feats: Brew Potion, Skill Focus Alchemy
Spellcasting: 4th level spells ((This is not a current requirement, but is in P&P, increases minimum level by 2))
Stats and Skills ((same as current))
Class Features:
1: Batch Brewing x2, Elixirs (3rd)
2: Alchemical proficiency
3: Elixirs (4th)
4: Batch Brewing x3
5: Elixirs (5th)
6: Detect Poison (at will), Poison Use
7: Elixirs (6th)
8: Potion Brew x4
9: Elixirs (7th)
10: Alchemical Mastery
Batch Brewing: Whenever they brew a potion of 3rd level or lower with a CL of 15 or less, a Master Alchemist can efficiently use the resources to create a second identical potion. At level 4 they can increase the batch to 3 by paying 150% the base price, and at level 8 increase the batch to 4 by paying double the base price.
Elixirs: Master Alchemist can brew powerful concoctions known as Elixirs. These brews are treated similarly to Potions but are both more potent and volatile. The Master Alchemist can brew an Elixir of 3rd level up to their Caster Level, to a maximum of 30. When doing so, the Master Alchemist must attempt an Alchemy check with a DC of 10 + 2* spell level + CL. Success results in an Elixir with no notable flaws, but failure on the check imparts a Toxicity to the Elixir equal to the difference between the DC and the roll. So long as the elixir remains in the alchemist's possession, the Elixir remains stable, but outside of the Master Alchemist's care it deteriorates and it's Toxicity increases by 1 point every 10 minutes, to a maximum of double the CL of the Elixir. Consuming toxic elixirs is dangerous, and can impart many debilitating effects (see the Toxicity Table). At level 3 and every odd level thereafter, the maximum Spell Level that may be brewed into an Elixir increases by 1, to a maximum of 7th level spells. ((NOTE: see explanation below for alternate systems))
Alchemical Proficiency: At 2nd level, a Master Alchemist has proven themselves adept at the formulation and proper use of many quasi-magical items. Once per day, they may fabricate a number of alchemical items equal to half their class level, to a maximum of 5. By making an alchemy check, for every 10 rolled beyond DC 10 the quality of the item improved by one step (Improved at DC20, Greater at DC30, to a maximum of Perfected at DC40). Additionally, the Master Alchemist adds their class level to the DC of any Alchemical Items they use.
Improved Identification: Beginning at 6th level, the master alchemist is so sure in her knowledge that she may use her Alchemy skill to identify potions and other such substances more quickly and simply than others. This master alchemist needs no alchemical equipment, spends no gp, and requires only 1 minute to identify such a sub-stance, and is otherwise treated as having Detect Poison as an at-will ability. The Master Alchemist is also confidently trained in the handling and application of toxic materials and is treated as having Poison Use.
Alchemical Mastery: At 10th level, a Master Alchemist is so skilled in their profession and exposed to enough hazards that they no longer fear the side effects of their work, and can put them to devastating use. The Master Alchemist no longer suffers any effect from Elixir toxicity, and gains Immunity to Poison. They also increase the damage and duration of any alchemical items they use by 50% and the DC by 4.
Notes on the Craft (Alchemy) Skill: Linking many of the abilities of the Master Alchemist to it's titular skill seems entirely appropriate to me. The current implementation requires a 10 Alchemy, and then zero improvement in the skill. My currently proposed abilities encourage investment and actual use of the skill to grow the class's powers in a manner similar to Bard. It also puts a practical limitation and incentive for lower CL elixirs by reducing the DC down from 58 (10 + CL30 + SL9*2) - a roll I know dedicated players could manage, but still an effort that requires dedication. Likewise with the Alchemical Items - Perfected items do require achievable investment, rather than having simply the 10 points base and never again. Ideally the Alchemical Creation would be a radial ability for crafting any Alchemical grenade-like as is permitted by the base skill itself, not just Alchemist Fires. For claritive purposes, I am looking at: Acid Flasks, Choking Powder, Tanglefoot Bags, and Thunderstones. Holy Water needs it's own revision but is already made via a spell. These would not be free, but I don't know costs or how it might otherwise interact with the proposed crafting system.
Notes on removal of the class-discount: The base class does not itself grant a discount to crafting potions. That discount is provided by a feat Magical Artisan which is a class requirement. Given that we do not have the feat as a class requirement (because we don't have the feat), I do not see that it should receive the benefits. On the flip side, I do not think requiring another feat is appropriate for the class, because that further pigeonholes the class into a marketplace-only class and away from being a field-viable build due to the loss of a potential combat-feat (In addition to the mandatory creation of new feats). As such, the only discounts it provides are to the lower-level potions which it can now produce in bulk, and thereby compete somewhat with wand proliferation.
Notes on Elixirs: I am aware that the "Elixir problem" is pretty much going to exist regardless thanks to "cat-bag" principles. My intention with these proposed changes is to borrow the Flash Bomb coding for Elixirs to provide them timed functionality. Activated either by the Master Alchemist to make them tradeable, or upon leaving the Master Alchemist's inventory it gets a timestamp. When used, compare to the timestamp and apply penalties appropriate to the duration. This would retain the ability for Elixirs to be shared with party members or via RP, but increasingly dangerous the longer they are held depending on the CL. Higher CL means bigger side-effects once they 'go bad', providing further incentive for lower CL elixirs (like Potions of Heal at CL11). As such, hopefully existing exceptions on individual spells and personal-target spells can be removed as effective penalties would be in place.
The numbers I have provided are entirely placeholder. Other options could include:
- no chance involved, no timers. Elixirs provide a flat Toxicity equal to caster level. CL 3 is 3 Tox, CL 30 is 30 tox.
- Ignore toxicity entirely, use the timer-script. After the timer expires, consuming the elixir rolls a die (like 4d20+CL, or d100+CL) checks on the Toxicity effect table below. No stacking effects, but each is a gamble.
- No timer, party check. Rather than bother with a timer, just check if the alchemist is in the party. If they are, no consiquence; if not, roll on the table as above. This does penalise 'loaner' potions more heavily.
- Ignore the tables entirely, no scripts. How Potions of Heal currently work for everything; Technically doable, but would be less prefferable to even the current poorly-considered suggestion-of-consiquence.
Notes on Toxicity: I do like the Toxicity system but it's both obscure, and obtuse, without imparting any practical detriment - particularly with long-term, high-CL buff elixirs. I would propose steps slimilar to what I have suggested before, of every 20 points of toxicity imparting a stacking penalty, as well as a duration of impact relevant to the effect of the elixir. Using 20-point steps, combined with the change to Elixirs, would mean that a toxic CL30 elixir would immediately impart the first 3 breakpoints (60 toxicity), and thus a potential substantial detriment. The change would also make it clear that high CL elixirs are more dangerous, unless you know they have been recently brewed (or at least recently provided by an Alchemist). In all circumstances, these risks should be public knowledge, rather than obscured behind unknowable code barriers.
The table I provide below is intended to be both predictable and thematically debilitating in ways that are not trivially overcome by spells like Restoration. I haven't provided a duration, but my thoughts would be either at-least 10-minutes, based on the CL of the effects, or linked to the other effects provided by the elixir-ed spell (complicated option).
Suggested Toxicity Breakpoints:
(0) No effect
(20) Poisoned (random, or DC of elixir CL)
(40) Penalty to both SR and Saves vs Spells, due to the toxic magic.
(60) Confusion-type effect and/or Magic-damage Vulnerability
(80) Larger penalty to both SR and Saves vs Spells, Wild Magic effects on future spells cast by or on target.
(100+) Disjunction on the target at the highest CL of either [highest CL buff on the user] or [the elixir consumed] as the magical effects react violently, Disabled for short time.
Summary:
The changes I propose double the level investment of the class from 5 to 10, remove the flat cost-reduction to un-dispellable CL-30 Elixirs in exchange for allowing the Alchemist to craft lower-level potions in bulk, Increase the variety and potency of Alchemical weapons available to the Alchemist to use (including Poisons which are canonically also alchemical). The level 2 ability is not in the P&P class, but provides a P&P feature currently unavailable to anyone with the Craft (Alchemy) skill, while making them actually useful in the hands of the class. The level 10 capstone is custom, but inspired by the Epic use of Craft Alchemy, with the DC boost as consideration for the general potency of the server and an optional suggestion.
It is my intention that these changes turn the Master Alchemist into a much stronger position aiding a party directly by providing time-dependent trades while having a unique arsenal of support, rather than sitting on a sideline and trafficking drugs via Consignment. I don't think these changes prevent the drug-traffickers, but do sharply increase the penalties involved with relying on such product.